GravityKnight Posted September 18, 2014 Report Share Posted September 18, 2014 I figured it wouldn't hurt to contact the county and having my own personal runway on my land. I am zoned agricultural. (My land is in the middle of nowhere) Here was the response I got from the county: Todd, this will require a special use permit. The application and letter of intent will have to identify how the requested proposal does or will meet the special use criteria found in Section 5.3.2 of the Land Development Code. Please refer to this criteria located on pages 5-111 and 5-112 the Code. Please let me know if you have any additional questions. Here is the code they are referring too. You have to look at the page numbers at the bottom of the actual pages (not the page numbers it shows in your PDF viewer) http://adm.elpasoco.com/Development%20Services/Documents/Land%20Development%20Code/(13)%20(FINAL)%20LDCChapter5%20Rev2a.pdf The research I did said on this topic suggested that unless it specifically says you can't use your land as a runway, or has any other stated rules/regulations (many counties have a maximum number of take offs/landings per week or month), they can't stop you from doing it. I have not replied to the county yet, but I don't feel they can force me to actually apply for a permit- assuming I don't break any sound ordinances (only thing I saw in there that someone could potentially find a problem with). Did I miss something? I'm trying to figure out how to respond to this... not that applying for a permit is the end of the world at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CT4ME Posted September 18, 2014 Report Share Posted September 18, 2014 I'd avoid getting involved in the process... once you acquiesce you might be volunteering to be controlled. 'Better to beg forgiveness than ask permission Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craig Posted September 18, 2014 Report Share Posted September 18, 2014 I figured it wouldn't hurt to contact the county and having my own personal runway on my land. Really, getting the govt. involved... what could possibly go wrong. CT4ME is right, better to ask forgiveness... too late now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GravityKnight Posted September 18, 2014 Author Report Share Posted September 18, 2014 They have my first name, and know that I'm in the county. I have 1 neighbor within about a half mile or so ( not inline with the approach or departure or my "Pattern") that could potential be a problem. If i 'm going to build a hanger, I wanted to have some idea of what I could be up against if they complain. They just moved out here, and we are on good terms with them now- but the wife made it clear she doesnt like airplanes. The air force academy practices somewhere within audible distance (miles from where we are)... And she was bragging about calling and getting them to reduce the number of times per week they are in our area. She said she has 'connections' Trying to plan ahead legally if needed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anticept Posted September 18, 2014 Report Share Posted September 18, 2014 Only one option. Zoom and boom her house with that harrier you are going to buy Anyways, she's full of it. There was a local lady who was causing real problems for the OSU airport by filing noise complains under a bunch of names and addresses until the feds got involved, got a subpoena for phone records, and told her she will go to jail for fraudulently filing noise complaints if she doesn't stop. She was mad at her ex-husband, who flies planes out of OSU! I wonder why he divorced her.... >.> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Meade Posted September 18, 2014 Report Share Posted September 18, 2014 It's hard to know about a case like this. If you don't get the special use permit and she decides to make trouble, what would happen? Are you still permitted X number of TO/LGS? Both county and state may have rules on this. If you get the special use permit, will that shield you from complaints if you are in compliance with all restrictions? One assumes you can already fly more than 500' of persons and things, (91.119). If she parked a car on the edge of her property line out of spite, are you still 500' away? Do any ag planes or pipe-line patrols operate nearby? Any history of complaints there? What is the process of the special uses permit? Is there a public forum? Do people within a certain distance get notified of the hearing? Do you intend to permit or invite other aircraft to use your strip? Do you intend to forbid other aircraft from using your strip (except for emergency)? Will it be put on the sectional? Marked as private? I really don't have a good feel for your situation. The above are only some thoughts running through my head. You may want to see if there is any history in your or other counties that can serve as a guide. Then, if all else fails, you tell the woman that you really want to put a hog confinement facility on your property, but you enjoy flying so maybe you'll put in an airport instead. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FastEddieB Posted September 18, 2014 Report Share Posted September 18, 2014 IOne assumes you can already fly within 500' of persons and things, (91.119). If she parked a car on the edge of her property line out of spite, are you still 500' away? That one, at least, should not be a concern, since the FAR Minimum Altitudes where that 500' comes from is preceded by... "Except when necessary for takeoff or landing..." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Meade Posted September 18, 2014 Report Share Posted September 18, 2014 He That one, at least, should not be a concern, since the FAR Minimum Altitudes where that 500' comes from is preceded by... "Except when necessary for takeoff or landing..." I went back and corrected my post to clarify that one flies MORE than 500' away. Your point still stands. My worry was that she would be within 500' of the downwind leg, which I think would be more problematic when it comes to justifying it as necessary for takeoff or landing. You could fly an opposite pattern or an extended pattern to obviate that exigency, I suppose. You may be right. Maybe I am a little paranoid about this as being a potential source of confusion to a bunch of unschooled county supervisors or zoning commissioners. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FlyingMonkey Posted September 18, 2014 Report Share Posted September 18, 2014 I may be wrong about this, but I recall hearing that the FAA has sole and complete authority regarding airspace and airports. You might start with them and get them to put it on the sectional as a private airfield. At that point I'm not sure if the county can do much about it without tangling up with the FAA in court. I'm not a lawyer, this is all based on hearsay. Your neighbor's wife sounds like quite a prize. Could you go over and have a sit down with them, explain the situation, and that you just want a place to land your little puddle jumper. Maybe you can come up with some ground rules you can agree on like not taking off or landing before Xam or after Ypm, not overflying their property more than absolutely needed to takeoff and land, etc. and that your airplane won't make much more noise than a car or lawn mower. If that doesn't work...set up the biggest speakers you can find, crank 'em up to 11, and point them at the neighbors' house and blast jet and prop noise at them 24/7. When they finally agree to let you have your airstrip, they will be amazed at how quiet and peaceful it is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tip Posted September 18, 2014 Report Share Posted September 18, 2014 Take an picture of her place from the air and give to her as a gift. Most neighbors like that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FlyingMonkey Posted September 18, 2014 Report Share Posted September 18, 2014 Take an picture of her place from the air and give to her as a gift. Most neighbors like that. If you can catch her sunbathing nude in the back yard, you can offer to post it online or give it as a gift in exchange for a runway. Kidding, of course! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GravityKnight Posted September 18, 2014 Author Report Share Posted September 18, 2014 Only one option. Zoom and boom her house with that harrier you are going to buy If that doesn't work...set up the biggest speakers you can find, crank 'em up to 11, and point them at the neighbors' house and blast jet and prop noise at them 24/7. When they finally agree to let you have your airstrip, they will be amazed at how quiet and peaceful it is. HAHA!!!! good stuff guys.. glad I'm not the only one that thinks this way Your point still stands. My worry was that she would be within 500' of the downwind leg, which I think would be more problematic when it comes to justifying it as necessary for takeoff or landing. Their place is to the west of the strip (strip runs n/s). So as long as my pattern is always on the east side, there is nobody on that side for miles. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GravityKnight Posted September 18, 2014 Author Report Share Posted September 18, 2014 Take an picture of her place from the air and give to her as a gift. Most neighbors like that. I have a nice cam and have done this for some family/friends for Christmas etc. Your right people do live this.. not a bad idea to butter them up a little! One assumes you can already fly more than 500' of persons and things, (91.119). If she parked a car on the edge of her property line out of spite, are you still 500' away?Do any ag planes or pipe-line patrols operate nearby? Any history of complaints there? What is the process of the special uses permit? Is there a public forum? Do people within a certain distance get notified of the hearing? Do you intend to permit or invite other aircraft to use your strip? Do you intend to forbid other aircraft from using your strip (except for emergency)? Will it be put on the sectional? Marked as private? Her property line is approx. 1000ft away thankfully. No ag planes or anything else that I'm aware of. Not sure how it works. The only thing I could see in that list of nonsense from the county would be the sound.. but a rotax wouldn't break any rules there. A continental/lycoming probably would though. I have a shooting range I built out to 800 yards, along their side of my property (built long before they moved in and built a house- at least they built their house on the end where I shoot from lol). Only been our there a time or two since they came, and they haven't complained. But she really made a stink about planes to my folks. (I'm at one end of the 80 acres, my folks are at the other). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GravityKnight Posted September 18, 2014 Author Report Share Posted September 18, 2014 I may be wrong about this, but I recall hearing that the FAA has sole and complete authority regarding airspace and airports. Andy from the research I've done, and that's not to say I'm 100% right, the FAA doesn't care about this, the local county has the final say. The FAA can back you on some issues if you actually make it an official private airport and they 'ok' that. I wasn't planning to do any of that, I wasn't going to put it in a sectional or anything. I'm not going to tell someone else they can't use it, but I wasn't going to invite people to use it either as I don't want to make enemies with people nearby. Technically it's my drive way anyway... it connects the main road, to my house, to my folks house... so I was just going to keep it pretty unofficial if possible. But the thought of sinking money into a hanger, and then having someone step on my dream to fly from my front porch started to worry me a little. If you can catch her sunbathing nude in the back yard, you can offer to post it online or give it as a gift in exchange for a runway. Kidding, of course! Sadly.. this wouldn't be a good thing to catch LOL.. but could be a good bargaining chip Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GravityKnight Posted September 18, 2014 Author Report Share Posted September 18, 2014 If a neighbor or a county guy sees what you are doing and gets nosy, you can face penalties, fines, and who knows what else if you don't get permits. Otherwise, if you see a low risk to any of that, have neighbors that are friends and don't see county people snooping arond in your neck of the woods... The only other risk is crashing. That's when everyone gets involved. Also, remember you can be seen from space. That's the thing though. On a flying forum I was reading, there was a case where the county went after someone like me.. but the guy 'won' because there was no actual code/regulations prohibiting flying in his county. So they are telling me I need a permit... but I'm wondering why? Where does it say that flying is special use of the land, or that flying requires any hoops to jump through? I didn't see anything like that in the code book that guy referred me to. He is telling me I need a special permit. Who is he to require me to do that? And I agree that if my neighbors were all cool (the other few in the area are)... I wouldn't never give it a thought. But there always has to be one..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FlyingMonkey Posted September 18, 2014 Report Share Posted September 18, 2014 Well, I don't think there is any prohibition about landing or taking off from any property, provided you have permission from the owner. The only problem is if you make it an "official" airstrip. I think you could plead ignorance (assuming they forget about the e-mail you sent and don't compare the names) if they say "you can't do that" by just saying it's not an official airstrip, just a place you land occasionally. A buddy of mine in an Avid lands in another friend's field occasionally, but it's not an "airstrip." Once you add improvements like a hangar, windsock, tower with rotating beacon, and an strip-side restaurant, that might be a harder argument to make... You may be worrying for nothing, complaining against the USAF Academy is one thing, p*ssing off your only neighbors that you just moved next to by shutting down their airstrip is something else...she might not want to fight that battle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GravityKnight Posted September 18, 2014 Author Report Share Posted September 18, 2014 agreed! Whether she realizes it or not.. she doesn't want to go down that path. It would be best for everyone. I'm pretty reasonable, I'm not going to make 30 landings a day with a straight piped lycoming lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
procharger Posted September 18, 2014 Report Share Posted September 18, 2014 when landing cut engine or idle she will never know what hit her stealth mode Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sandpiper Posted September 19, 2014 Report Share Posted September 19, 2014 Not a popular idea, I'm sure, but you might want to retain an attorney. Will cost you now, but may save a lot of heartburn later. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony & Rose Posted September 19, 2014 Report Share Posted September 19, 2014 Concur with Sandpiper. We created a 1800' strip on one of our properties and having a 'knowledgeable and experienced' professional is worth the funds. Should you misstep in the beginning you will be living with that situation... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WarEagle07 Posted December 31, 2014 Report Share Posted December 31, 2014 Hey, any update on this? Watched your videos of the strip. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GravityKnight Posted January 5, 2015 Author Report Share Posted January 5, 2015 Nothing much. Things between us and the neighbor have cooled off which is good. I haven't even started on my hanger yet. Too many days in the 5-15 degree are with the wind blowing on top of it. Plus I have another car project I'm (hopefully) finishing up with and won't be putting so much time into. I was hoping to get the hanger built before spring, then start plane shopping as the weather starts to come around. I really don't think she will make an issue out of it unless I'm flying something really loud / and often... and at this point the county can pound sound, I have looked through every rule I can find and there is nothing related to what I'm doing in writing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Posted January 5, 2015 Report Share Posted January 5, 2015 Google private airport FAA local government federal preemption Lots of interesting reading that might apply. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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