FlyingMonkey Posted October 7, 2014 Report Share Posted October 7, 2014 Kellie and I wanted to fly from Winder to Paulding County on the other side of the Atlanta Class B Sunday to have lunch with friends. I have been avoiding flying inside the mode C veil like the plague, I just don't want to risk busting airspace. But for this flight I decided to bite the bullet and make my first flight as PIC under the class B. There is a 5000ft east/west corridor under the class B that is perfect for this flight, but there are several class D airspaces below up to 3500ft, so you really only have the 1500ft altitude window between 3500 and 5000 to fly the route. Here's what it looks like: The flight worked out great. I got flight following to help keep us out of trouble, and used the altitude hold function of the autopilot (cheating, I know) to make sure we maintained the correct VFR altitude and didn't deviate into airspace we were not cleared into. It turned out to be a great trip! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GravityKnight Posted October 7, 2014 Report Share Posted October 7, 2014 I don't think it's cheating. I fly in class C every time I fly, but have only once flown in class B. They really expect you to maintain the exact heading and altitude you are given in class B- that was my experience anyway. I was fighting a lot of wind and drifted 005-010ish of course and they let me know :blink: Class C.... little more laid back, which I like! Glad it was a good flight! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FlyingMonkey Posted October 7, 2014 Author Report Share Posted October 7, 2014 I don't think it's cheating. I fly in class C every time I fly, but have only once flown in class B. They really expect you to maintain the exact heading and altitude you are given in class B- that was my experience anyway. I was fighting a lot of wind and drifted 005-010ish of course and they let me know :blink: Class C.... little more laid back, which I like! Glad it was a good flight! I think if I was passing through the B-space, it would be exactly as you described...maintain heading and altitude they give you. I was under the shelf, so not "in" the B-space. When I got flight following, after getting a squawk code, ATC said "Radar contact, continue own navigation, remain clear of class B airspace". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FlyingMonkey Posted October 7, 2014 Author Report Share Posted October 7, 2014 BTW, my understanding is that if you are flying under flight following, and are going to fly through class D or C airspace at your current altitude and course, ATC is supposed to coordinate with those areas and clear you through or tell you to remain clear of them before you get there. After all, you are not allowed to switch freqs to arrange your own transitions. Can somebody confirm this? I would not rely on that to go through B airspace though, and would remain outside the class B until I heard the magic words "you are clear to enter the class B airspace." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ralarcon Posted October 7, 2014 Report Share Posted October 7, 2014 This very weekend, I flew under Class C , at Tampa and Class B at Miami. Done it before, and will be doing this often in the future. KLAL to KTMB. Did not get flight following , but did tune in to Tampa and Miami approach, when as I got within several miles of their airspace. Last time , I took this trip, and asked for FF, they quickly dropped me , because they were "too busy". When you approach these airports it gets very busy, especially Miami, but Tampa is busy too. I rely on my eyes, but I must confess XM traffic information is extremely useful on my Dynon. Cheers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FlyingMonkey Posted October 7, 2014 Author Report Share Posted October 7, 2014 This very weekend, I flew under Class C , at Tampa and Class B at Miami. Done it before, and will be doing this often in the future. KLAL to KTMB. Did not get flight following , but did tune in to Tampa and Miami approach, when as I got within several miles of their airspace. Last time , I took this trip, and asked for FF, they quickly dropped me , because they were "too busy". When you approach these airports it gets very busy, especially Miami, but Tampa is busy too. I rely on my eyes, but I must confess XM traffic information is extremely useful on my Dynon. Cheers Agreed. I probably would not have tried to get FF if I made the same trip on a Tuesday, but it was Sunday morning so their traffic load was lighter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy Posted October 7, 2014 Report Share Posted October 7, 2014 A reason to monitor the appropriate tower or approach control frequency when flying in or around Class B, C, or D airspace is to listen for possible traffic that could create a conflict for you. While your ability to pick it out will be a function of your own situtational awareness (and perhaps how well you know an area), you can often tell when ATC is talking to someone about you or when it's another aircraft you might want to be looking for (i.e., someone's launching out of an airport off a runway whose extended centerline you're just now crossing). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Meade Posted October 7, 2014 Report Share Posted October 7, 2014 I monitor, but if I don't have to talk to them, I don't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ralarcon Posted October 7, 2014 Report Share Posted October 7, 2014 A reason to monitor the appropriate tower or approach control frequency when flying in or around Class B, C, or D airspace is to listen for possible traffic that could create a conflict for you. While your ability to pick it out will be a function of your own situtational awareness (and perhaps how well you know an area), you can often tell when ATC is talking to someone about you or when it's another aircraft you might want to be looking for (i.e., someone's launching out of an airport off a runway whose extended centerline you're just now crossing). As I was approaching KLAL, I listened to a transmission about a Sea Ray that crashed in Tampa bay. Was practicing water landings , left his landing gear down, toppled over. Both pilots rescued from the bay , by boaters. Got away with just a few scratches. Lucky. Cheers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Meade Posted October 7, 2014 Report Share Posted October 7, 2014 Gear up, gear up, gear up. I have a seaplane rating but have not flown anything with retractable gear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
N751JM Posted October 7, 2014 Report Share Posted October 7, 2014 BTW, my understanding is that if you are flying under flight following, and are going to fly through class D or C airspace at your current altitude and course, ATC is supposed to coordinate with those areas and clear you through or tell you to remain clear of them before you get there. After all, you are not allowed to switch freqs to arrange your own transitions. Can somebody confirm this? I would not rely on that to go through B airspace though, and would remain outside the class B until I heard the magic words "you are clear to enter the class B airspace." If you are on flight following and approaching class D airspace ATC may or may not coordinate. At KSTS they do not have the technology (!?!) to coordinate and, if necessary (ie ATC is too busy) I will tell ATC I am switching to the tower (with enough distance out that I can contact the Class D before entry), or if I can't get a word in edge-wise I will just switch and call the tower. If center wonders what happened then THEY can call the tower and ask :-). As the tower manager told me once, they can violate me for entering Class D without establishing two-way radio communication, but they have no such recourse with OAK center! For class C airspace, if you are on flight following approaching class C airspace it is likely you are already in two-way radio communication with the correct facility (ie NorCal approach when nearing SAC Class C in my area) so they shouldn't have a problem with it. As you say, for class B, you MUST hear the words "N12345 cleared into the XXX Class Bravo". I've even made a 90 deg turn off of a controller's suggested heading (remember I'm VFR) as I told him I could go no further without a clearance. He came right back with the clearance and all was well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anticept Posted October 7, 2014 Report Share Posted October 7, 2014 The responsibility ends with the PIC, no matter if it's VFR or IFR. Whether or not ATC is "supposed" to do anything, you as the pilot are the one who will get in trouble if you bust airspace without clearance. Usually though, flight following will ask you to contact the airspace you are approaching for your own clearances and traffic advisories. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anticept Posted October 7, 2014 Report Share Posted October 7, 2014 If IFR, you are flying on a clearance. Just make sure you don't deviate without a revised clearance.PIC needs to obtain said clearance by contacting ATC and getting started on the flight plan in the first place. That's why responsibility ends with PIC. Now, if ATC gives you clearance when you aren't supposed to, you aren't going to get in trouble, that's their fault for messing up. I am referring to normal circumstances. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anticept Posted October 7, 2014 Report Share Posted October 7, 2014 I am also referring to normal circumstances. If you are flying IFR, you have filed a flight plan and gotten a clearance and are flying that clearance. Why do you want to argue everything.Making a point that the statment is still true Sorry, I tend to get really tied up in the finer points of regulation debate (yes, i am that kind of boring person). I get asked a lot of questions by people about regulations relating to flying, or for maintenance. I am usually able to answer them because i explain by breaking down to a core set of rules and intentions, and it *usually* works. For items that I am not 100% about, I do tell them to ask the FSDO anyways. I also learn by debate. It's an extremely useful skill to have, and as long as it stays civilized, you can learn an entirely different viewpoint while comparing it to your own! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doug G. Posted October 8, 2014 Report Share Posted October 8, 2014 There are times when I have contacted a tower in class D just to tell them where I was. (I was at an altitude above their airspace.) They gave me a higher altitude. I could have refused, but it wasn't a big deal and I suspect it made things easier for them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anticept Posted October 8, 2014 Report Share Posted October 8, 2014 Your responses are frequently condescending as if nobody but you knows what they are talking about. We are all pilots. We know the PIC is responsible. You said a VFR or IFR pilot needs to make sure he gets cleared. I made the point that a pilot flying IFR is already flying on an IFR clearance. No additional clearance would be needed. Sadly it's the nature of text on a computer, it's very hard to type out how it sounds my head. Again, sorry, don't mean to be condescending, just brief since i am typing on an iphone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NC Bill Posted October 8, 2014 Report Share Posted October 8, 2014 Boy I must be one lucky Dude. I never fly without requesting flight following if I can raise them on freq. In at least the last 10 years, while hangered in 3 different Class C airports and flying between Canada to Key West to Las Vegas, I can remember only once being denied flight following due to workload - Shaw Approach flying KILM to KRDU. I was stunned and still remember it. Don't be afraid to request it. They are there to help. Traffic avoidance is awesome. In an emergency someone's right there to help or advise. Need wx advice? Ditto. There is no downside I can think of. It can't hurt - it might help. My 2 cents. Your mileage may vary. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doug G. Posted October 9, 2014 Report Share Posted October 9, 2014 And yet they can keep you out off their airspace. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doug G. Posted October 9, 2014 Report Share Posted October 9, 2014 Not a problem, just seems their authority is understated in your quote. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FlyingMonkey Posted October 9, 2014 Author Report Share Posted October 9, 2014 My understanding is that if directed to do something by ATC, you must comply, say "unable" and give a reason, or declare an emergency. Isn't there a FAR that essentially says exactly that? Of course, if ATC "suggests" a course/altitude change or some other action, that's a different story. But I imagine if you are on FF and there is a traffic conflict, terrain alert, or other immediate threat then ATC are not going make it sound like a suggestion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed Cesnalis Posted October 9, 2014 Report Share Posted October 9, 2014 Flight following is not flying inside controlled airspace. Flight following services do not provide clearances into controlled airspace, they may give you advisories on MOAs etc, but you are still responsible to talk to ATC authorities for a given controlled airspace. Or the controlling authority for a given MOA or Restricted area. It's a service ATC 'may' provide to VFR pilots outside controlled airspace. Here is a good tutorial from AOPA interviews with ATC answering the questions being raised on this thread: http://www.aopa.org/AOPA-Live.aspx?watch=M4ZDNiOTpoORl4ZW5bo2x52OIK3oLX6J Me thinks your definition of controlled airspace is imprecise and therefore I don't get the meaning of your post. http://www.faa.gov/regulations_policies/handbooks_manuals/aviation/pilot_handbook/media/PHAK%20-%20Chapter%2014.pdf Maybe a better way to say it is that if you have FF, included will be most of the clearances you need. If Bravo you need to hear the magic words. If Charlie, talking to FF is enough unless they vector you or request that you remain clear. A, B, C, D & E are all controlled, MOA and Restricted are special use. FF cannot clear you into Delta but will handle it for you. MOAs can be transitioned VFR and FF can tell you if a Restricted area is active. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FlyingMonkey Posted October 9, 2014 Author Report Share Posted October 9, 2014 Me thinks your definition of controlled airspace is imprecise and therefore I don't get the meaning of your post. http://www.faa.gov/regulations_policies/handbooks_manuals/aviation/pilot_handbook/media/PHAK%20-%20Chapter%2014.pdf Maybe a better way to say it is that if you have FF, included will be most of the clearances you need. If Bravo you need to hear the magic words. If Charlie, talking to FF is enough unless they vector you or request that you remain clear. A, B, C, D & E are all controlled, MOA and Restricted are special use. FF cannot clear you into Delta but will handle it for you. MOAs can be transitioned VFR and FF can tell you if a Restricted area is active. That is my take away as well. For airport spaces other than Bravo, I expect FF to get the clearance to get me through or to tell me to remain clear. If there is doubt I ask if I'm clear to transit through. When I was flying up the East Florida coast under FF with Orlando center, I was over the Jacksonville Class C when I noticed clouds ahead. I just told Orlando I needed to descend into the class C to maintain VFR and wanted to drop to 3000, and they cleared me to do so, asking that I remain above 3500ft if able. I flew at 3800ft until clear of the class C, then advised them I was continuing my descent to 3000. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FlyingMonkey Posted October 10, 2014 Author Report Share Posted October 10, 2014 I went to check out my ATL flight on flightaware, and it does not show up, and says my airplane has had no flights in the last 14 days...anybody know why that would be, if I'm on FF? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anticept Posted October 10, 2014 Report Share Posted October 10, 2014 FF doesn't always put you in the system. Long trips probably will, but local flights will likely not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FlyingMonkey Posted October 10, 2014 Author Report Share Posted October 10, 2014 FF doesn't always put you in the system. Long trips probably will, but local flights will likely not. So sad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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