gbigs Posted November 19, 2014 Report Share Posted November 19, 2014 ..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craig Posted November 19, 2014 Report Share Posted November 19, 2014 How the gear is required where Mode C is required today thus relegating some to stay out of Mode C if they do not comply. Wait a minute! I thought "the FAA is mandating the technology and you WILL put it in your plane or suffer a ramp check one day and lose your airworthiness certificate." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doug G. Posted November 19, 2014 Report Share Posted November 19, 2014 If you enter mode C or B airspace. Although you won't be allowed in without ADS-B. I assume it will be "busting" if you cross the Mode C ring. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ralarcon Posted November 19, 2014 Report Share Posted November 19, 2014 Do we need to wait for an FD approved ADS B transponder (meaning in and out ), to be compliant, before we proceed to equip our aircrafts ? Cheers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chanik Posted November 19, 2014 Report Share Posted November 19, 2014 Both the KT-74 and TT31 from Trig are drop in ADSB-out transponders that can replace the KT-76A most of us use. Still need to connect it to a WAAS GPS receiver RS-232 output which can come from any garmin x96 GPS. The snag is that the GPS is supposed to be certified. So it would work but run afoul of the regs at the moment. I plan to wait until 12/1/2019 to deal with this as I expect the FAA to relax their requirements a bit and costs to come down as more suppliers ramp up production. It is pointless to require WAAS accuracy anyway just to keep planes thousands of feet or miles apart. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FlyingMonkey Posted November 19, 2014 Report Share Posted November 19, 2014 You would be correct. If you get caught flying into controlled airspace without ADS-B and you get ramp checked you will no doubt lose your AC. How many NEVER fly into controlled airspace? Better yet, how many DO NOT have a Mode C xpndr? Wow, Craig was making fun of what you have said in the past...you not only took the bait, you doubled down on being completely wrong. Class E & D are controlled airspace, we are all free free to operate in those airspaces after the 2020 date with absolutely zero ADS-B gear on board. ADS-B out is needed only for class A,B,C and inside the Mode C veil. So in short: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Posted November 19, 2014 Report Share Posted November 19, 2014 You would be correct. If you get caught flying into controlled airspace without ADS-B and you get ramp checked you will no doubt lose your AC. How many NEVER fly into controlled airspace? Better yet, how many DO NOT have a Mode C xpndr? It's this sort of silliness that has reduced me to checking sportpilot and ctflier once a week instead of every day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anticept Posted November 19, 2014 Report Share Posted November 19, 2014 We all fly in controlled airspace every time we fly. Controlled airspace is A, B, C, D, and E., everything except G. I guess it's possible to fly in only class G, but not very likely. ADS-B will not be required in class D, E, and G except within the 30nm class B veil and above class B or C. If you violate the ADS-B airspace, you may get a violation, but they are not going to take your aircraft. That is ridiculous. Why does someone continue to post nonsense? I believe Mode C is also required below the class C shelf, so I think that's also ADS-B space Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ralarcon Posted November 19, 2014 Report Share Posted November 19, 2014 I believe Mode C is also required below the class C shelf, so I think that's also ADS-B space So class B and Class C veil, will require an ADS-B "out" , certified transponder, ADS-B "in" not required, but you will be missing on the benefits if any to you ? Has FD certified any ADS-B transponder ( "out") that can be used in the CTSW and /or CTLS ? My understanding is that Dynon has an ADS-B "in" receiver , do not know if it is approved for use by FD. Cheers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anticept Posted November 19, 2014 Report Share Posted November 19, 2014 So class B and Class C , veil will require an ADS-B "out" certified transponder, ADS-B "in" not required, but you will be missing on the benefits if any to you ? Has FD certified any ADS-B transponder ( "out") that can be used in the CTSW and /or CTLS ? No idea. I was just adding on to what you said about flying above C & B space Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FlyingMonkey Posted November 19, 2014 Report Share Posted November 19, 2014 So class B and Class C veil, will require an ADS-B "out" , certified transponder, ADS-B "in" not required, but you will be missing on the benefits if any to you ? Has FD certified any ADS-B transponder ( "out") that can be used in the CTSW and /or CTLS ? My understanding is that Dynon has an ADS-B "in" receiver , do not know if it is approved for use by FD. Cheers There are several ADS-B solutions that have gotten MRA/LOA from FD, usually in the form of the integrated Skyview stuff since Skyview comes from the factory on CTs now. But caveat emptor, none of the Dynon stuff is currently certified, it's unclear if that certification will happen or if upgrades will again be required before 2020. I know that Dynon plans to certify it, but all such plans succeed or fail at the whim of the FAA... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ralarcon Posted November 19, 2014 Report Share Posted November 19, 2014 There are several ADS-B solutions that have gotten MRA/LOA from FD, usually in the form of the integrated Skyview stuff since Skyview comes from the factory on CTs now. But caveat emptor, none of the Dynon stuff is currently certified, it's unclear if that certification will happen or if upgrades will again be required before 2020. I know that Dynon plans to certify it, but all such plans succeed or fail at the whim of the FAA... A bit troubling, Thanks. Cheers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Meade Posted November 19, 2014 Report Share Posted November 19, 2014 I have a certified Dynon solution. It's not installed in my CTSW yet but I have one. Go to the Dynon web site for details. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anticept Posted November 19, 2014 Report Share Posted November 19, 2014 There are several ADS-B solutions that have gotten MRA/LOA from FD, usually in the form of the integrated Skyview stuff since Skyview comes from the factory on CTs now. But caveat emptor, none of the Dynon stuff is currently certified, it's unclear if that certification will happen or if upgrades will again be required before 2020. I know that Dynon plans to certify it, but all such plans succeed or fail at the whim of the FAA... I don't believe that the devices need to be certified, just conform to the TSO. The part that I am unsure about is the GPS source, which I know must be WAAS, but I do not know about certification. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ralarcon Posted November 19, 2014 Report Share Posted November 19, 2014 I don't believe that the devices need to be certified, just conform to the TSO. The part that I am unsure about is the GPS source, which I know must be WAAS, but I do not know about certification. Yes exactly, ADS-B "out" has to be WAAS and FAA certified. I know there are some non certified, ADS-B out equipment out there but obviously that might not be enough to fulfill the requirement. And then there is the question, of whether FD approves their installation. Given the fact that they are fussy on minor Dynon programming , I cannot imagine the would go easy on actual avionics. Cheers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ralarcon Posted November 19, 2014 Report Share Posted November 19, 2014 The Dynon SV-XPNDR-262, ADS-B transponder still needs a TSO WAAS certified GPS connected to it, so in my view even at the Dynon level it is still not a full one piece solution, and requires additional expenditures if you have a 796 and a Dynon GPS. Cheers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ralarcon Posted November 19, 2014 Report Share Posted November 19, 2014 How is anyone going to verify a CERTIFIED WAAS GPS. The Garmin 796 is a WAAS GPS, just not certified. Semantics Cheers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anticept Posted November 20, 2014 Report Share Posted November 20, 2014 Yes exactly, ADS-B "out" has to be WAAS and FAA certified. I know there are some non certified, ADS-B out equipment out there but obviously that might not be enough to fulfill the requirement. And then there is the question, of whether FD approves their installation. Given the fact that they are fussy on minor Dynon programming , I cannot imagine the would go easy on actual avionics. Cheers The applicable AC guide for ADS-B out is AC 165A. The Dynon transponder, SV-XPNDR-261 and 262, are certified to TSO C166b (as listed in that AC) according to http://www.dynonavionics.com/downloads/Literature/Dynon-SV-ADSB-XPNDR-Web-Jul2012.pdf . The dynon transponder should have a fleet wide LOA coming out soon, if it's not out already. If you want it installed now, FD will give you an LOA (one of my club members bought a 2012 CTLS and got an LOA for installation). Garmin's 330ES is also qualified, and that's already approved for use in FD aircraft (LOA still required for installation, as it's an equipment list item). At that point. you just need an appropriately certified GPS source as defined in that AC (for example, the garmin 430w certifies IAW with C146, which is also allowable by that AC) to be ready for 2020. Lots of independent WAAS GPS sources are coming out and many are pursuing certification hard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FlyingMonkey Posted November 20, 2014 Report Share Posted November 20, 2014 How is anyone going to verify a CERTIFIED WAAS GPS. The Garmin 796 is a WAAS GPS, just not certified. Hmm...aren't you the guy who just argued that if you don't have all your ADS-B ducks in a row, the FAA is going to take your airplane? But now you are saying it doesn't really matter if your equipment conforms or not, because nobody will be checking...which is it? In the space of a few posts you have managed to completely contradict yourself. If they want to verify that you are using an appropriate GPS source, there are ways that could be done. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ralarcon Posted November 20, 2014 Report Share Posted November 20, 2014 The applicable AC guide for ADS-B out is AC 165A. The Dynon transponder, SV-XPNDR-261 and 262, are certified to TSO C166b (as listed in that AC) according to http://www.dynonavionics.com/downloads/Literature/Dynon-SV-ADSB-XPNDR-Web-Jul2012.pdf . The dynon transponder should have a fleet wide LOA coming out soon, if it's not out already. If you want it installed now, FD will give you an LOA (one of my club members bought a 2012 CTLS and got an LOA for installation). Garmin's 330ES is also qualified, and that's already approved for use in FD aircraft (LOA still required for installation, as it's an equipment list item). At that point. you just need an appropriately certified GPS source as defined in that AC (for example, the garmin 430w certifies IAW with C146, which is also allowable by that AC) to be ready for 2020. Lots of independent WAAS GPS sources are coming out and many are pursuing certification hard. I would rather not lose the use of my Garmin 796, then I also have the Dynon GPS, does that mean I have to buy another GPS, and there is no equipment that would have both avionics GPS and transponder in one unit ? How much electrical avionics equipment can the generator power ? Or do I have to get rid of my current equipment ? This is getting complicated. Cheers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chanik Posted November 20, 2014 Report Share Posted November 20, 2014 Which is why the TSO'd WAAS GPS is the painful part. Swapping out for a new Xpndr is bad enough at $2400 (Transponders are always TSO'd, no such thing as an un-certified one). Adding the RS-232 connection to an existing GPS would be OK, but adding a whole new $$$ GPS solely because the FAA likes things 'certified' is bullshit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ralarcon Posted November 20, 2014 Report Share Posted November 20, 2014 Which is why the TSO'd WAAS GPS is the painful part. Swapping out for a new Xpndr is bad enough at $2400 (Transponders are always TSO'd, no such thing as an un-certified one). Adding the RS-232 connection to an existing GPS would be OK, but adding a whole new $$$ GPS solely because the FAA likes things 'certified' is bullshit. Agree, who would want to buy a Garmin 796 or 696 now or in the future , if they are obsolete. Cheers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FlyingMonkey Posted November 20, 2014 Report Share Posted November 20, 2014 Agree, who would want to buy a Garmin 796 or 696 now or in the future , if they are obsolete. Cheers The sad part is that they are not old or obsolete, they are just as useful and accurate as the certified GPS units...they just don't have the "seal of approval." A cynical person might conclude that the TSO requirement is a backdoor subsidy to the big manufacturers like Garmin...you sure don't see much outcry from them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ralarcon Posted November 20, 2014 Report Share Posted November 20, 2014 The sad part is that they are not old or obsolete, they are just as useful and accurate as the certified GPS units...they just don't have the "seal of approval." A cynical person might conclude that the TSO requirement is a backdoor subsidy to the big manufacturers like Garmin...you sure don't see much outcry from them. MrMorden, you read my mind. The only one that gets screwed is the consumer ! Cheers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anticept Posted November 20, 2014 Report Share Posted November 20, 2014 Actually even garmin says the portables should not be used for critical navigation. Theres a bunch of technical backend stuff that certified gps' have that portables do not do to verify integrity of the system (i dont have the details). I'm sure they could build a portable that fits the bill, but it goes back to the FAA refusing to certify them. You will not have to get rid of current equipment. you just need to install a certified GPS source and wire it to the ADS-B system. I am hoping to see a box on the market soon that had no bells and whistles other than a USB diagnostic port, and a gps reciever. That's it. I know the GDL-88 is a standalone, but you are also paying for a UAT transceiver. As I understand though, if you pair it with a 330ES, you can get both UAT and 1090 ADS-B in (remember, there are two ADS-B systems, and you need both in to see all ADS-B traffic!) Also, why does the FAA have UAT? If 1090 has already been around, what are they doing? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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