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ATC Vector: Mag Hdg Or Gnd Trk


gbigs

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Everyone has a tablet, this is not a glass vs steam gauges thing.

 

When flying an airway or a VFR transition route, apply the correction, if you have a route track it.

 

If you have an assigned heading fly the heading assigned.  It remains ATC's job to provide the correction.  You don't get called on providing your own correction because the controller can't tell or doesn't care.  

 

It is true that providing your own wind correction might even make things easier on the controller but the correct procedure remains as it has been. 

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I was going to ask if ATC ever asks you to 'say heading'  then I saw VL Roberts posted this: You could get yourself into trouble. For example, say you were instructed to fly heading 270 and you cranked in 20 degrees of wind correction and flew 290. If a loss of required separation occurred and the controller asked what your heading was and you replied "290", you just earned a Pilot Deviation.

 

Between FastEddie's explanation and this from VL and everthing said here: http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=3944 You should be convinced.

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The answer is simple. If the say heading fly the heading, if they say track fly the track. If they assign a heading and you fly ground track you are doing it wrong. Over on the other forum you have a group of people with likely over 100 times the collective flight experience you have telling you the correct answer, why do you find it so hard to believe. If you do not believe look the answer up for yourself in the AIM. Now where do I send the bill for my flight instruction time? I'm tired of giving you all of this free instruction, especially when it is basic private pilot knowledge.

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There is only one person confused about this.  If ATC assigns you a heading, you fly the magnetic heading they assign.

 

It's absolutely stupid that rated pilots are even discussing this.

This is so fundamental. Only an idiot would argue this issue.

Once again, a village idiot disseminates BS, and the gallery goes berserk.

 

His mission is once again accomplished.

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From the FAA pilot controller glossary.

 

FLY HEADING(DEGREES)- Informs the pilot of the heading he/she should fly. The pilot may have to turn to, or continue on, a specific compass direction in order to comply with the instructions. The pilot is expected to turn in the shorter direction to the heading unless otherwise instructed by ATC.

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My feelings are gradually moving from frustration to foreboding.

 

I have chosen not to read certain posts In this thread, yet I think I can get the gist by the responses.

 

To summarize, a neophyte pilot with very little experience has brought to light that he does not understand a basic concept.

 

Following that, across at least two forums several experienced CFI's have weighed in, along with other pilots and even a retired Air Traffic Controller, quoting sources and trying to provide clear and concise examples why the misunderstanding could lead to violation or worse.

 

Yet apparently, all in vain.

 

The foreboding comes from a feeling of déjà vu. A prior forum member was corrected about a misconception, and no amount of persuading could get him to admit error. Some may remember the iPad as a landing aid thread, and the attitudes presented there.

 

And the (seemingly) inevitable outcome.

 

And this spookily reminds me of that.

 

On a side note, I read one of the "juicier" posts* to Karen, my wife. Her response? "I think he's doing it on purpose." Well, maybe, maybe not - but she's a darn good judge of character, and that may actually fit the facts at least as well as some of the other theories.

 

 

*It had been quoted, and involved a quite insulting use of the verb, "to chirp".

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What I don't get is that he owns a plane and has a private license (if he is to be believed). He has recently completed his training, and passed his check ride, but seems to misunderstand many things that are a- common sense, or b- should have been learned during his training. He goes for a month or two participating well and getting along, then he starts posting odd stuff and getting belligerent. It seems to be either intentional or sociopathic, or both.

The next step is for the admin to start in on us for commenting on him.

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VL Roberts wrote:
Retired ATC here. If you are assigned a heading, you fly the heading. I wouldn't put too much stock in what a controller might say in a casual conversation.

You could get yourself into trouble. For example, say you were instructed to fly heading 270 and you cranked in 20 degrees of wind correction and flew 290. If a loss of required separation occurred and the controller asked what your heading was and you replied "290", you just earned a Pilot Deviation.

 

Which controller are you going to listen too?  Roberts is speaking directly too you telling you that you are wrong.

 

The controller you are quoting was not asked the correct question and he did not give a correct answer.

 

The correct answer is non-ambiguous, fly, assigned headings do not track them if told to fly them

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One thing to be aware of its when you are told "traffic at 11 o'clock" they are using how you show up on radar which will be affected by cross wind. The cannot tell which way the plane is pointed.

 

I had not thought of this before, but it makes perfect sense.  And explains why sometimes a callout for traffic at 10 o'clock is really at 9, or 11...or 12.   

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Aviation communications are supposed to be exact for a reason - SAFETY - when the controller says fly heading 270, that's the heading you fly.  NOT A TRACK!   PERIOD!!

 

When departing an airport on runway 6 and you are told to fly runway heading, but your airport chart says runway 6 is actually a magnetic heading of 056, what HEADING do you fly, 060 or 056?

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Honestly, I'm not even sure how this could get screwed up.  If you are told to fly a heading, you point the airplane to that heading on whatever heading indicator you are using...compass, EFIS heading indicator, gyro (assuming it's been properly corrected for precession), whatever.  To fly a track instead, you'd have to do some manual wind correction, set a GPS course line to follow, or do some other adjustments and corrections.  The point is you have to work much harder to do this wrong than to do it right.

 

Sometimes the easy answer is the correct answer.

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When departing an airport on runway 6 and you are told to fly runway heading, but your airport chart says runway 6 is actually a magnetic heading of 056, what HEADING do you fly, 060 or 056?

 

If 6 is painted on the runway, I'd fly 060.  That is the published and "accepted" runway heading.  If the controller wants 056 he/she will issue a heading change when he sees your track.

 

BTW, in bumpy air holding a heading exactly in a CT is challenging.  If you are within 4° you are doing pretty well.

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Aviation communications are supposed to be exact for a reason - SAFETY - when the controller says fly heading 270, that's the heading you fly.  NOT A TRACK!   PERIOD!!

 

When departing an airport on runway 6 and you are told to fly runway heading, but your airport chart says runway 6 is actually a magnetic heading of 056, what HEADING do you fly, 060 or 056?

 

You should fly 056

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RUNWAY HEADING− The magnetic direction that corresponds with the runway centerline extended, not the painted runway number. When cleared to “fly or maintain runway heading,” pilots are expected to fly or maintain the heading that corresponds with the extended centerline of the departure runway. Drift correction shall not be applied; e.g., Runway 4, actual magnetic heading of the runway centerline 044, fly 044.

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Ah, so it is...never noticed that.  Though technically having to look on the chart is "looking it up".   :D

Duane is right, but if you are dead set against looking it up, line up on the center line of the runway and note your heading.

 

If the FAA wanted to get picky, they would certainly point out that the exact runway heading should be part of any pre-flight briefing specifically to address the situation discussed here. It's a good idea to know the runway heading so that when one lines up, for example at an intersection take-off on some 8,000' runway and one doesn't have the numbers in one's face, one can note that the DG heading and the runway heading one checked out before hand agree with the runway heading tower assigned.

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Duane is right, but if you are dead set against looking it up, line up on the center line of the runway and note your heading.

 

If the FAA wanted to get picky, they would certainly point out that the exact runway heading should be part of any pre-flight briefing specifically to address the situation discussed here. It's a good idea to know the runway heading so that when one lines up, for example at an intersection take-off on some 8,000' runway and one doesn't have the numbers in one's face, one can note that the DG heading and the runway heading one checked out before hand agree with the runway heading tower assigned.

 

Not dead set against it (I LIKE documentation!), I'm just wondering how many pilots land at an unfamiliar towered airport and note the magnetic direction of the runway before departing, in case they are assigned "runway heading" to fly.  Maybe I'm the only one that hasn't been doing that, but I doubt it.  Sure you can note the direction of the runway when lined up, but that likely won't match the published runway heading any more closely than the numbers painted on it...

 

And yes, I know the FAA boilerplate that requires us to literally to know *everything* about each flight before departing.  Like "careless and reckless", an undefined and impossible to comply with regulation.  If the FAA wants any of us, they will have us. 

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 Sure you can note the direction of the runway when lined up, but that likely won't match the published runway heading any more closely than the numbers painted on it...

 

 

It will match the actual heading correcting for any error from your compass or from the published heading.  You will be able to fly the heading you might not be able to say what it is.

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Not saying it was right, but...

 

...when teaching instrument takeoffs with the hood on, we would line up on the runway, then set the Heading Indicator to the RWY heading to the nearest 10° - IOW, to the heading of the RWY numbers. We did that to make it easier to follow an exact heading.

 

If you think about it it makes little difference. If you line up on RWY 9 and set in 090° and take off, you WILL track the runway centerline, whether the runway is actually 086° or 094°. Later in the flight you would sync the Heading Indicator to the compass and dial out the <5° error.

 

With a slaved HSI this will not work, and you would need to fly the exact runway heading. None of the training planes we had were so equipped, however.

 

Truth be told, I virtually never consult the actual runway magnetic bearing for VFR flying. Maybe I should, but it seems a non-issue for the kind of flying I do now. Honestly, I don't recall it ever being a factor, even IFR.

 

I also wonder how many instrument pilots and instrument instructors DO make note of the runway magnetic bearing. Maybe I just have a huge hole in my skillset!

 

I may just go check out the actual runway bearing at Copperhill!

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