Roger Lee Posted February 27, 2015 Report Share Posted February 27, 2015 What I have been reading about overhaul verses rebuilding. Overhaul seems to mean that you re-use some parts if they pass an inspection and rebuild means to just replace all parts regardless. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Baker Posted February 27, 2015 Report Share Posted February 27, 2015 What I have been reading about overhaul verses rebuilding. Overhaul seems to mean that you re-use some parts if they pass an inspection and rebuild means to just replace all parts regardless. All parts are not replaced, otherwise it would simply be new. As for who can rebuild you need to take a look at CFR 43.3. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Meade Posted February 27, 2015 Report Share Posted February 27, 2015 There was no drop in my insurance value when I switched. They asked if I'd like to increase it and I said no, why? They said often people who go experimental add valued components so maybe I'd like to up the hull value. I am with Fast Eddie in the sense that I really don't care what it might have done to the value of my plane, but I got no indication they thought it was worth less. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rich Posted February 27, 2015 Author Report Share Posted February 27, 2015 Jim, Can you explain the process of the switch? Is it a simple matter of just filling out a new registration form to be sent to the FAA. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FlyingMonkey Posted February 27, 2015 Report Share Posted February 27, 2015 There are "levels" of rebuilds too. You can rebuild to meet spec, meaning any part within serviceable specs is reused (cheaper), or you can rebuild to meet new limits, meaning any part that does not fall within the limits for a new part is discarded and replaced (less cheap). Not sure how Rotax rebuilds things, I'd guess to new limits. What is a 912ULS rebuild these days? $10k-$12k? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FastEddieB Posted February 27, 2015 Report Share Posted February 27, 2015 Jim, Can you explain the process of the switch? Is it a simple matter of just filling out a new registration form to be sent to the FAA. I'm not Jim, but a DAR has to inspect the plane and do the paperwork. I used Michael Huffman near Atlanta. He has a FAQ page that I think talks about the process. DAR services explained here: http://www.sportaviationspecialties.com/DAR_Services.htm I believe you can search this forum and find a thread of mine that documents my Sky Arrow conversion process. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rich Posted February 27, 2015 Author Report Share Posted February 27, 2015 Thanks Eddie and also all who've responded to this topic Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anticept Posted February 28, 2015 Report Share Posted February 28, 2015 There are "levels" of rebuilds too. You can rebuild to meet spec, meaning any part within serviceable specs is reused (cheaper), or you can rebuild to meet new limits, meaning any part that does not fall within the limits for a new part is discarded and replaced (less cheap). Not sure how Rotax rebuilds things, I'd guess to new limits. What is a 912ULS rebuild these days? $10k-$12k? Rebuild is always to new limits or approved oversize/undersize (not the same as serviceable!). When rebuilding, the total time (not just since overhaul) of the component becomes ZERO too. When you rebuild an engine, you probably don't get the same engine back. Us mechanics are laughing about rebuilt engines because the manufacturers just take the data plate off and slap it on an engine fresh from the assembly line, and it provides very very little advantage over overhauling, since the cost gap is pretty large (except on rotax, but in that case just buy brand new). Overhauling has "new limits" and "serviceable limits". Rarely anyone overhauls to serviceable because it's too much liability and there's no guarantee you'll reach the next TBO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AZAV8OR Posted February 28, 2015 Report Share Posted February 28, 2015 Rebuild is always to new limits or approved oversize/undersize (not the same as serviceable!). When rebuilding, the total time (not just since overhaul) of the component becomes ZERO too. When you rebuild an engine, you probably don't get the same engine back. Us mechanics are laughing about rebuilt engines because the manufacturers just take the data plate off and slap it on an engine fresh from the assembly line, and it provides very very little advantage over overhauling, since the cost gap is pretty large (except on rotax, but in that case just buy brand new). Overhauling has "new limits" and "serviceable limits". Rarely anyone overhauls to serviceable because it's too much liability and there's no guarantee you'll reach the next TBO. When I bought my Cirrus 5 years ago, COPA introduced me to the concept of "IRAN", or "Inspect and Repair as Necessary". I adopted this for mags, alternators, etc. It's as simple as it sounds: instead of "overhaul" or "rebuild", in which the bench tech is bound by the manufacturer's procedures, only the unserviceable parts are replaced. Way more economical! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger Lee Posted February 28, 2015 Report Share Posted February 28, 2015 The problem with that theory is allowing people with little or no training, experience, proper tools and testing equipment to make those decisions. I see this every single day and hear it from all over the world. The other problem is it allows the cheapskates a way out that may endanger their passengers and the passengers are unknowing victims. If the people that get to make these decisions had the knowledge, training, experience and tools then it wouldn't be so bad. This can't even be argued to a level playing field because it has been a fact since aviation began and it doesn't just include aviation. Every single person on our forum knows someone like this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AZAV8OR Posted February 28, 2015 Report Share Posted February 28, 2015 Roger, Agreed. I'd never have an unqualified person handle such a thing. My mags went to a good shop for IRAN, as did my alternator. That said, things like carbs, gyros, etc., always get the Full Monty. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Baker Posted February 28, 2015 Report Share Posted February 28, 2015 The problem with that theory is allowing people with little or no training, experience, proper tools and testing equipment to make those decisions. I see this every single day and hear it from all over the world. The other problem is it allows the cheapskates a way out that may endanger their passengers and the passengers are unknowing victims. If the people that get to make these decisions had the knowledge, training, experience and tools then it wouldn't be so bad. This can't even be argued to a level playing field because it has been a fact since aviation began and it doesn't just include aviation. Every single person on our forum knows someone like this. Roger, IRAN has nothing to do with any of this, and it has been a common practice long before you were involved with aviation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doug Hereford Posted February 28, 2015 Report Share Posted February 28, 2015 Some more thoughts on overhaul vs. rebuild, etc......... I have had similar experiences with the FAA regarding the use (or mis-use) of these terms. Every inspector I have ever discussed this with has made it clear that they would be very inclined to "drop the hammer" on persons who incorrectly use these terms to describe work that was done. It is true that only a manufacturer can "rebuild" something. It should be noted however, in the SLSA world, that NEITHER an aircraft manufacturer or in the case of Rotax, engine manufacturer.................... is authorized to "overhaul" or "rebuild" anything [FAR 43.3(j) and 43.7]. Conversely, an appropriately mechanic, repairman, or repair station is fully authorized to describe something as "overhauled" (provided of course that they meet their other relevant regulatory requirements, 43, 65, and 145 as applicable). This includes the overhaul of a Rotax engine (or carburetor, etc.......). In my opinion most importantly, an overhaul must never be used to substitute for any required inspection (the aforementioned 200 hr. carb inspection is not a required inspection however). The main reason for this is that required inspections always carry with them, additional requirements to confirm compliance with ALL items of airworthiness related to the product being inspected. Overhauls do not carry this same requirement. I have personally experienced cases where an engine was overhauled (by the manufacturer), and subsequently been rendered out of compliance with an item of airworthiness (items of airworthiness include AD's, Safety Directives, airworthiness limitations and other type design items as applicable). Doug Hereford Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FlyingMonkey Posted February 28, 2015 Report Share Posted February 28, 2015 IRAN is the standard maintenance practice for both military and commercial aviation. Only GA has been slow to embrace it. Roger is right though, IRAN does not relieve the need for trained and properly equipped techs to do the "I" part. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doug Hereford Posted February 28, 2015 Report Share Posted February 28, 2015 IRAN, Iguess we can finally stop changing those hoses just cuz. Ha ha Doug Hereford Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger Lee Posted February 28, 2015 Report Share Posted February 28, 2015 IRAN = Inspect and repair as necessary And here I thought I was going to be out of breath after IRAN maint. Regardless of whether you are talking about an engine, a landing gear strut or another aircraft component, there are basically three ways to fix it. Overhaul...........means to take the component or assembly to the overhaul specifications (not new specs) Rebuild.............means to take the component or assembly to NEW specs IRAN..................means to take the component or assembly to airworthy specs, without a complete overhaul or rebuild. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doug Hereford Posted February 28, 2015 Report Share Posted February 28, 2015 Roger, Just to be clear: The terms overhaul and rebuild have specific regulatory definitions (someone already posted the rule citation). IRAN is an industry concept not directly defined in FAR. Doug Hereford Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger Lee Posted February 28, 2015 Report Share Posted February 28, 2015 I understand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anticept Posted February 28, 2015 Report Share Posted February 28, 2015 there is a "new spec" in overhauling. It's called new limits. But, the maintenance history still follows the part. The difference between overhaul new limits and rebuilt is who does it and if the history is wiped out. Other than that, they are functionally identical. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gbigs Posted February 28, 2015 Report Share Posted February 28, 2015 Hmmmm. So, my SLSA being maintained by me, makes me a professional. But, as soon as I go ELSA, I become what, unprofessional? The reality is I am a tinkerer and do-it-yourselfer so my SLSA must be what, an unreliable piece of junk? On the other hand, maybe my LSRM-A makes me a professional, who knows his limits, regardless of if my plane is ELSA or SLSA? So, I say the value of one vs. the other lies more in the quality of the plane, the documentation of any work performed in logbooks, and a good buyers inspection. I would never buy an aircraft maintained by a non trained professional. Would you let your truck driver neighbor take out your appendix? That would be safer than trusting your life to a tinkerer or do-it-yourselfer on an aircraft. A car mis-repaired ends up in a AAA call for roadside assistance. A plane mis-repaired or mis-maintained results in a crash on takeoff or stranded up on a mountain somewhere. Likewise, I would not buy a used aircraft for the same reason. An old aircraft is like a street walker, lotsa miles and no doubt a ton of questionable characters encountered. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rich Posted March 1, 2015 Author Report Share Posted March 1, 2015 I'm not Jim, but a DAR has to inspect the plane and do the paperwork. I used Michael Huffman near Atlanta. He has a FAQ page that I think talks about the process. DAR services explained here: http://www.sportaviationspecialties.com/DAR_Services.htm I believe you can search this forum and find a thread of mine that documents my Sky Arrow conversion process. I searched the web and found a site with total info on the conversion. Total cost in this case was $500 for the new E-LSA Reg. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FastEddieB Posted March 1, 2015 Report Share Posted March 1, 2015 I searched the web and found a site with total info on the conversion. Total cost in this case was $500 for the new E-LSA Reg. Mine was a bit less, but that was about 7 years ago. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IrishAl Posted March 1, 2015 Report Share Posted March 1, 2015 I searched the web and found a site with total info on the conversion. Total cost in this case was $500 for the new E-LSA Reg. Rich - would you be prepared to say what it is that's driving your interest in going ELSA - is it the right to do your own maintenance, or cost saving, or the right to make modifications like fitting a VP prop? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed Cesnalis Posted March 1, 2015 Report Share Posted March 1, 2015 VP prop is not permitted in ELSA Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IrishAl Posted March 1, 2015 Report Share Posted March 1, 2015 What are the principal benefits, other than doing your own maintenance? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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