procharger Posted June 13, 2015 Report Share Posted June 13, 2015 Just to add my thoughts about the oil and temps. been running Penzoil cycle oil for two years just switched to Mobil 4T I to have noticed 10 maybe closer to 20 degree drop on hot days, don't think I'm seeing things??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DocRon Posted June 13, 2015 Report Share Posted June 13, 2015 I agree. I've been using it for over 400 hours in my CTLS. I use 91 Octane fuel exclusively. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gbigs Posted June 14, 2015 Report Share Posted June 14, 2015 Yes. Mogas and Mobil 1 4T are the ultimate way to fun a Rotax....plus the Sport Upgrade, now you got a plane that can climb, cruise and get there in grand style and within the green everytime... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doug G. Posted June 14, 2015 Report Share Posted June 14, 2015 Well unless you don't want to, or can't use mogas all the time. Once again one size does not fit all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Runtoeat Posted June 14, 2015 Report Share Posted June 14, 2015 Amsoil 10W-40 motocycle synthetic is also highly rated for wear additives. I use both the Mobile and Amsoil. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Posted June 14, 2015 Report Share Posted June 14, 2015 I ran Mobil 1 4T for a couple of years and liked it. Switched to a semi-synthetic because I didn't want to make bad fuel management decisions based on the availability of mogas. YMMV. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gbigs Posted June 14, 2015 Report Share Posted June 14, 2015 I ran Mobil 1 4T for a couple of years and liked it. Switched to a semi-synthetic because I didn't want to make bad fuel management decisions based on the availability of mogas. YMMV. Carry a small bottle of Decalin Runnup on trips...going back to semi syn after running full syn is ill-advised btw... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger Lee Posted June 14, 2015 Report Share Posted June 14, 2015 "going back to semi syn after running full syn is ill-advised btw" Why? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Posted June 14, 2015 Report Share Posted June 14, 2015 Carry a small bottle of Decalin Runnup on trips...going back to semi syn after running full syn is ill-advised btw... I don't carry nasty stuff like that in the cabin of the aircraft. I'd like a cite claiming there's any problem with going back to semi-synthetic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FlyingMonkey Posted June 14, 2015 Report Share Posted June 14, 2015 I thought that the new Aeroshell formulation is now the *only* oil approved by Rotax for all situations and fuels...? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger Lee Posted June 14, 2015 Report Share Posted June 14, 2015 Hi Andy, Recommended. Nobody can dictate an oil and Rotax knows there are parts of the world that people can't or have a hard time getting Aero Shell. I truth there are many oils used in Rotax engines and have been since late 1990. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gbigs Posted June 14, 2015 Report Share Posted June 14, 2015 "going back to semi syn after running full syn is ill-advised btw" Why? Again, advise from Kevin at CPS. He gave me the heads up on Mobil 1 4T, but did say once running that oil, going back to a semi-syn is a problem. At the same time he said ya gotta use Mogas exclusively once on a full syn. Anyway, since I was already running Mogas all the time, using Mobil 1 was a big win since it has better temp control characteristics than Aeroshell. And it;s a lot easier to get, they have it at O'reilleys for example. And taking Decalin along on trips is prudent if you need to use 100LL. I have a glass baby bottle with a lid and a gasket. It works perfectly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FlyingMonkey Posted June 14, 2015 Report Share Posted June 14, 2015 Hi Andy, Recommended. Nobody can dictate an oil and Rotax knows there are parts of the world that people can't or have a hard time getting Aero Shell. I truth there are many oils used in Rotax engines and have been since late 1990. Okay, recommended. So Mobil users are going against manufacturer's recommendations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger Lee Posted June 14, 2015 Report Share Posted June 14, 2015 Again, advise from Kevin at CPS. He gave me the heads up on Mobil 1 4T, but did say once running that oil, going back to a semi-syn is a problem. At the same time he said ya gotta use Mogas exclusively once on a full syn. Anyway, since I was already running Mogas all the time, using Mobil 1 was a big win since it has better temp control characteristics than Aeroshell. And taking Decalin along on trips is prudent if you need to use 100LL. I have a glass baby bottle with a lid and a gasket. It works perfectly. Unfortunately Kevin is wrong and there are articles all over the web to prove him incorrect. There is no scientific studies or evidence that gives any credence to this with a Rotax engine. There has never been a problem and owners have been swapping oils since 1990. There is no problem going from Mobile 1 R4T to Aero Shell. I think Kevin is going back to the old days of when we all used regular oils in cars and the synthetics first hit the market and some seals weren't up to the task, but Rotax uses "O" rings that are impervious to this problem. A lot of misinformation by mechanics and owners that was never supported by the MFG's. As far as using 91 oct. exclusively that is partly true. A full synthetic oil will not suspend the lead found in 100LL, but a semi synthetic will. You should try and use 91 unleaded with a full synthetic, but if you had to run a tank or two through there wouldn't be enough to lose sleep over. We are talking long term use and not 1 tank. I seriously doubt any big temp savings. Possibly over a regular mineral based oil under high stress. I haven't seen any scientific studies comparing one full synthetic to another as far as temp reductions and the only way to really prove this with even a slight chance of proving this would be in a lab under controlled conditions. You might get some idea of this if you went and flew with Mobile One and recorded the temps then immediately landed and put Aero Shell in the same engine and flew the exact same way and course before there was any OAT changes. You couldn't do it with a different plane, engine or pilot and the times with the test would have to be really close. read down this article about halfway. http://www.autoguide.com/auto-news/2013/01/should-you-use-synthetic-oil-in-your-vehicle.html "Synthetic Versus Conventional To understand the benefits of synthetic oil you first have to learn how it differs from dinosaur juice. Conventional lubricants are made from crude oil. It’s extracted from the ground and then extensively refined to remove impurities. After that it gets blended with other chemicals before landing on the shelf of your local auto-parts store. But according to Jared Martin, National Automotive Retail Accounts Manager for Royal Purple Ltd., no matter what you do, “conventional oils have a level of insolubles – paraffin, waxes, silicon, dirt – natural contaminants.” Under certain conditions these substances can form deposits inside an engine. By comparison, synthetic oils are typically manmade, though not necessarily, a point addressed later in this article. Martin said “[they] are usually derived from natural gas or alcohol,” meaning they’re pure from the get-go, containing no undesirable contaminants. They’re also more stable at a variety of temperatures. They don’t thin out as much when they get hot or excessively thicken in cold weather. Z. George Zhang, PhD and CLS manager of Valvoline’s R&D Lab in Lexington, Kentucky said, “the better oil, like a synthetic oil, the VI (viscosity index) will be higher – [meaning] the viscosity changes less with temperature, which is a desirable trait.” Further complicating things, many refiners offer synthetic blends. These oils are generally less expensive than pure-bred synthetics, but they also offer less protection. As always, you get what you pay for. Synthetic Advantages Another major benefit of synthetic oil is molecular consistency. Being an impure substance, conventional lubricants are made up of molecules that are all different lengths. According to Zhang, there are small, medium and long hydrocarbon chains. Synthetic oil is comprised of only medium-length molecules. The problem with conventional oil is that those short, lightweight hydrocarbons tend to burn off when they get hot. This causes the oil to thicken the longer it’s in an engine. Aside from that, synthetic oils also handle high temperatures better than conventional lubricants. They’re better at transferring heat, meaning synthetic oils can actually help a vehicle’s engine run cooler. Being more resistant to breakdown or “shearing,” synthetics are much more robust than conventional lubricants, something that can really pay off. According to Martin the drain interval can safely be extended anywhere from 10,000 to 12,000 miles, or three to four times normal oil, while the added cost of synthetic is nowhere close to that." Some niche oil companies advocate even longer drain intervals, up to 25,000 miles, but this is quite extreme and not something Zhang recommends. BETTER FUEL ECONOMY FROM SYNETHETIC OIL? Yet another way synthetic oil can save drivers money is through improved fuel economy. Don’t go looking for a huge increase if you make the switch, but Martin said Royal Purple can actually boost efficiency by around 2 to 3 percent, a modest but welcome improvement. Of course there are other ways to save money at the pump. Pete Misangyi, Supervisor of Fuels and Lubricants at Ford said they’ve switched to lighter weight 5W-20 oils in order to trim fuel consumption. These oils are easier to pump, meaning less energy is wasted. Ford has also started to use variable-displacement oil pumps, which move less oil at lower engine speeds to help boost efficiency even further. With these improvements, Ford has started advocating 10,000-mile change intervals on its vehicles, helping lower maintenance costs for customers. Magic Ingredients Petroleum-based lubricants have many disadvantages compared to their synthetic counterparts, but there’s more to oil than oil. “We’re not just relying on the synthetic base stocks for the benefits of Royal Purple” Martin said. “[it’s] really just a carrier for the additives” he said, noting “I would take a well-formulated mineral oil over a poorly formulated synthetic oil.” Downsides: Dispelling Rumors Of course the benefits of synthetic come at a price. They’re usually several times more expensive than old-fashioned lubricants. But with longer drain intervals and improved fuel economy “the benefits of synthetic justify the expense,” Martin said. Many of the other down-sides about synthetic oil simply aren’t true, including the notion that you can’t switch to it if a vehicle has been on conventional oil for a long time, as well as the idea that it should be avoided in older, high-mileage cars. Zhang said decades ago synthetic-oil makers didn’t pay attention to seal compatibility, which caused seals and gaskets to harden or get brittle, leading to leaks and other issues. This is where these myths about synthetic oil likely originated. But he points out that was 20 years ago or more and “that’s not an issue anymore.” Misangyi seconds this. He said “a proper [oil] blend shouldn’t have any issues.” Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed Cesnalis Posted June 14, 2015 Report Share Posted June 14, 2015 Again, advise from Kevin at CPS. He gave me the heads up on Mobil 1 4T, but did say once running that oil, going back to a semi-syn is a problem. I have found that Kevin Kane will say whatever is convenient. I would not follow his advice simply because he said so. What possible harm could t here be in 'going back' after using 4T? That is not only poor advise it is downright silly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gbigs Posted June 14, 2015 Report Share Posted June 14, 2015 Unfortunately Kevin is wrong Opinions do vary, but there is no question Mobil 1 motorcycle racing oil is formulated to handle temperature and high RPM better than semi syns or other engine motor oils not formulated for the stresses of such an engine environment. And there is no question lead is an issue in the engine, Rotax agrees and admonished owners in regard to mogas versus leaded gas as well. Roger, your argument is not with Kevin, it's with the chemists that work for the oil industry. I appreciate your mechanical expertise, but I am again going with both Kevin and the chemists working for the oil industry on this one.... I am also still going with Kevin's explanation on the gear box washers and how to observe the filings on the mag plug.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gbigs Posted June 14, 2015 Report Share Posted June 14, 2015 I have found that Kevin Kane will say whatever is convenient. I would not follow his advice simply because he said so. What possible harm could t here be in 'going back' after using 4T? That is not only poor advise it is downright silly. Kevin is the expert at CPS. Kevin has been trained both in the US and in Austria on Rotax. CPS has been the West Coast Rotax Service Center since 1984. Owners reading these posts should know who is who and who may carry a tad more weight on Rotax engines. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed Cesnalis Posted June 14, 2015 Report Share Posted June 14, 2015 That is a pretty nasty thing to say about someone who is not here to defend himself.... He has his own forum here. http://ctflier.com/index.php?/forum/67-rotax-parts-service-and-aircraft-supplies/ Please don't leave me hanging, Why does Kevin say you can't go back? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger Lee Posted June 14, 2015 Report Share Posted June 14, 2015 "Roger, your argument is not with Kevin, it's with the chemists that work for the oil industry." Just propaganda. Ask any MFG if they don't have the best product on the market and they'll be happy to tell you. When I did my research studies on oil and filters years ago I went way past the first guy on the phone to the engineers. They'll tell it like it is. many use the same base stocks and additive packages and just tweak the additives. Some even use the same oil and label it as two different things. Kevin shouldn't be saying this without scientific evidence or something from Rotax. We've been to the same schools together and we were never told this. "I am also still going with Kevin's explanation on the gear box washers and how to observe the filings on the mag plug..." Washer wear is only one depositor of metal from the gearbox. Then you'll discount any other metal deterioration in the gearbox? See pictures. Plus I just had another gearbox where the washers were fine. The rest of the gearbox was a problem to the tune of $4K. Be really careful about blanket statements. Realize that Rotax makes statements for worldwide use and not just the US. There are operational differences that affect those situations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger Lee Posted June 14, 2015 Report Share Posted June 14, 2015 I wouldn't go down this road if there is no supporting scientific evidence from any reliable source and I know Rotax has nothing. All real time operation evidence since 1990 doesn't support any of this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Posted June 14, 2015 Report Share Posted June 14, 2015 What the hell happened to that engine, Roger? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed Cesnalis Posted June 14, 2015 Report Share Posted June 14, 2015 KK's credentials may be impressive to some. They become irrelevant without the answer to the question 'WHY?' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anticept Posted June 14, 2015 Report Share Posted June 14, 2015 A little JB weld will fix that right up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger Lee Posted June 14, 2015 Report Share Posted June 14, 2015 He was one that said why fix it if it ain't broke. Don't know for sure, but my guess is either the split ring keeper came out of the top on the prop shaft or a better guess is a belleville washer broke. It could have been from lack of maint. or MIF or just a part failure. Don't know for sure yet. It just happened. New engine time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger Lee Posted June 14, 2015 Report Share Posted June 14, 2015 Kevin is the expert at CPS. Kevin has been trained both in the US and in Austria on Rotax. Owners reading these posts should know who is who and who may carry a tad more weight on Rotax engines. . " Owners reading these posts should know who is who and who may carry a tad more weight on Rotax engines." You are right, but you may be getting in a little deep here without some background info. For instance: Kevin and I have been to the same schools since he came to CPS except for he was allowed to go to an overhaul school which is only reserved for a service center. I have been to many more Rotax schools than Kevin over the years because I have been around Rotax longer and I do service work plus components and so have many others. Kevin in general terms is new to Rotax compared to many and I believe he is knowledgeable, but he is learning as he goes. He is the only one at CPS and I think he's overworked.. CPS was in San Leandro under Mike Straton for many years and only went to Aircraft Spruce in Corona in Nov. 2011. Kevin has been around Rotax since then and was an aircraft mechanic in the service. I like Kevin and we are friends and we have learned together and we help each other, but it takes many years to get to see everything. We all learn over the years no matter who it is because when you think you have seen it all something new comes up even for Rotax. I learn something new all the time. CPS used to do service work before it was sold so they saw many things. CPS does no service work now. They do the smaller component work like carbs, gearboxes and two strokes, but no annuals or that style of work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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