Jump to content

Will the elimination of the medical really affect LSA


Al Downs

Recommended Posts

I just finished reading the long thread about the possible removal of medical requirements. A lot of good points but it seems most people are missing one of the best things about Light Sport Certificates.

 

If you are only concerned with current pilots, I can see where the comments are coming from. However if you are like me, I want to promote new pilots.

 

Make some calls, find out what is being quoted for cost of Private Pilot training. I am hearing $8-12 thousand. Now check Sport Pilot training. More like $4 thousand.

 

In a recent conversation about this I was told, "why would I train someone for $4k when I can and have been training pilots for $10k, I would be leaving $6k on the table." My response is in most cases you are not leaving $6k on the table, you are leaving $10k on the table because many of those people turn around and walk out, you never see then again.

 

We all know the dropout rate is very high and many times it is because of the cost. Yes time is also a factor but in my opinion we need to promote aviation at the basic level. All of the training goes forward to Private if they decide to go to higher certificates. How many people do you know that have spent more than what it cost for Sport while working on the Private and then dropped out because life got in the way? Had they worked their way up, they could have Sport for life and if things changed they could still go Private in the future.

 

Once a Sport pilot the joy of flight could be had on a much less frequent basis than training demands. In these joy flights it is likely you would also do some longer cross country flights that would meet the requirements for Private if you decided to go that route all while perfecting your maneuvers. Things like this would mean less time needed paying an instructor if you upgrade.

 

Many of the people looking into becoming a pilot want to be able to fly to their cottage or relatives across the country or maybe a vacation. As current pilots we know the pitfalls of thinking like that. Not very practical for the first couple years and most of the time more expensive that other choices.

 

Remember most pilot prospects don't really know the real world of single engine flight. Why chase them away with the high initial cost of training?

 

Ask them:       Do you need to fly at night?

                       Do you need to carry more than one passenger?

                       Do you need to fly IFR (you will need to explain this to most)?

                       Do you want to rent airplanes in other parts of the country?

 

If they answer yes to any of the questions they may be a candidate for Private. If they answer no or are not sure then Sport may be a better choice for now and upgrade down the road.

 

Many training facilities knock Sport. Sure they do because they don't have a Sport plane to use for training. You can use a Sport plane for Private training but can't use a Private plane for Sport. Get rid of some of those 1970's Cessna's and put a modern Sport on line. A lower cost of training coupled with a modern glass cockpit is very attractive to a prospective pilot. 

 

The removal of the medical will only affect Light Sport to the extent that we really promote new pilots. The idea that pilots would transition down was never valid. Most that can't pass a physical do not move down they just quit flying and discourage Sport because they don't understand the category.

 

Lets do all we can to promote aviation. How about your responding with pros and cons for both Private and Sport. Which is really the best way to go for aviation in general?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The medical will only affect the old guys who used to fly bigger heavier planes, and a small subset of those who haven't flown before.

 

When we're advertising sport, the big point we push is the plane on its own merits. This accounts for about 50% of the fliers. I would say the remaining 30% is about pricing, and 20% is medical reasons.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The training for Sport Pilot versus Private Pilot is almost the same so any price difference will be minimal (if you need $10k to get a Private then you will need $8k to get a Sport).

 

The major difference between Sport and Private being the 3rd class medical, a slightly longer xcountry flight, 3 hours of dual night cross country with 10 full stop landings, 2 extra hours of under hood (at least 1 hour required for sport pilot).   Both must still pass a written...both must still take a checkride with the same PTS standards.

 

Regarding pilots with out of date 3rd class medicals flying as sport pilots, many will go back to flying the old Part 23 Cessna, Pipers and even Cirrus if they are allowed to fly on a drivers license.

 

The full impact of such a change cannot be accurately predicted on light sport.  The economics of flying light sport versus a 40 year old Cessna are also too close to call.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Here's an idea, if this goes through in a practical way I will keep flying my CT but join up with a local partnership that has a nice Mooney.  I will offer access to the CT in exchange for access to the Mooney.  Every hour they fly the CT should entitle me to an hour on the Mooney?

 

I much prefer the fuel burn and very light stick forces on my CT but I do prefer the 200mph if I have to go all the way to Portland or even LA.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The training for Sport Pilot versus Private Pilot is almost the same so any price difference will be minimal (if you need $10k to get a Private then you will need $8k to get a Sport).

 

The major difference between Sport and Private being the 3rd class medical, a slightly longer xcountry flight, 3 hours of dual night cross country with 10 full stop landings, 2 extra hours of under hood (1 hour required for sport pilot).   Both must still pass a written...both must still take a checkride with the same PTS standards.

 

Regarding pilots with out of date 3rd class medicals flying as sport pilots, many will go back to flying the old Part 23 Cessna, Pipers and even Cirrus if they are allowed to fly on a drivers license.

 

The full impact of such a change cannot be accurately predicted on light sport.  The economics of flying light sport versus a 40 year old Cessna are also too close to call.

 

You keep saying that there is 1 hour of instrument training required for sport pilot. Please provide a source for this requirement.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I just finished reading the long thread about the possible removal of medical requirements. A lot of good points but it seems most people are missing one of the best things about Light Sport Certificates.

 

If you are only concerned with current pilots, I can see where the comments are coming from. However if you are like me, I want to promote new pilots.

 

Make some calls, find out what is being quoted for cost of Private Pilot training. I am hearing $8-12 thousand. Now check Sport Pilot training. More like $4 thousand.

 

In a recent conversation about this I was told, "why would I train someone for $4k when I can and have been training pilots for $10k, I would be leaving $6k on the table." My response is in most cases you are not leaving $6k on the table, you are leaving $10k on the table because many of those people turn around and walk out, you never see then again.

 

We all know the dropout rate is very high and many times it is because of the cost. Yes time is also a factor but in my opinion we need to promote aviation at the basic level. All of the training goes forward to Private if they decide to go to higher certificates. How many people do you know that have spent more than what it cost for Sport while working on the Private and then dropped out because life got in the way? Had they worked their way up, they could have Sport for life and if things changed they could still go Private in the future.

 

Once a Sport pilot the joy of flight could be had on a much less frequent basis than training demands. In these joy flights it is likely you would also do some longer cross country flights that would meet the requirements for Private if you decided to go that route all while perfecting your maneuvers. Things like this would mean less time needed paying an instructor if you upgrade.

 

Many of the people looking into becoming a pilot want to be able to fly to their cottage or relatives across the country or maybe a vacation. As current pilots we know the pitfalls of thinking like that. Not very practical for the first couple years and most of the time more expensive that other choices.

 

Remember most pilot prospects don't really know the real world of single engine flight. Why chase them away with the high initial cost of training?

 

Ask them:       Do you need to fly at night?

                       Do you need to carry more than one passenger?

                       Do you need to fly IFR (you will need to explain this to most)?

                       Do you want to rent airplanes in other parts of the country?

 

If they answer yes to any of the questions they may be a candidate for Private. If they answer no or are not sure then Sport may be a better choice for now and upgrade down the road.

 

Many training facilities knock Sport. Sure they do because they don't have a Sport plane to use for training. You can use a Sport plane for Private training but can't use a Private plane for Sport. Get rid of some of those 1970's Cessna's and put a modern Sport on line. A lower cost of training coupled with a modern glass cockpit is very attractive to a prospective pilot. 

 

The removal of the medical will only affect Light Sport to the extent that we really promote new pilots. The idea that pilots would transition down was never valid. Most that can't pass a physical do not move down they just quit flying and discourage Sport because they don't understand the category.

 

Lets do all we can to promote aviation. How about your responding with pros and cons for both Private and Sport. Which is really the best way to go for aviation in general?

 

I could not agree with you more. Excellent piece, Should be published on several forums including POA, and AOPA.

 

Shows a clarity of thought rarely seen on this subject. Congratulations !

 

Cheers :good_job-1300:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The instrument training he is referring to is 61.93 (e) (12). There are no specifics on time or type of training. In some Light Sports (Comco Ikarus) there is no way of doing any kind of hood work. They just don't have the instruments to do it. We have the CTLS and the Ikarus so we can get it done with one plane. It only applies to aircraft with speed in excess of 87 kts so some are exempt. The problem is they don't provide the specifics. We take each student in the CT and give them a few minutes hands on and talk to them about the importance of staying out of those conditions in the first place. Most DPE and Instructors as well are unaware of this requirement but we make sure we do it and log it as such. 

 

The whole thing is ambiguous. I have talked to Oklahoma and they are aware of the mess they created and are supposed to address it and revise. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

My CFI , excellent instructor by the way,  Provided goggles, I could only see the instrument panel of my CT. He proceeded to upset the aircraft in all kinds of ways, uncoordinated, excessive angle of attack etc, and then asked me to level the wings, and maintain proper altitude and course. We did not stop until he was satisfied I could do it right. I'm not planing to ever fly into IMC, but my training gives me the confidence to face, safely, such eventuality if it ever comes. And yes I hold a Sport Pilot License, not interested in anything else at this time, no medical issues.

 

Cheers

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'm in agreement with you, aldowns, and feel that the community is not leveraging Light Sport in ways that could be truly helpful and were intended.  Part of it seems to be simply a resistance to change, and some of it seems to be just an attempt to preserve the status quo, which also means that the ills Light Sport was intended to address won't get better.  The paucity of Light Sport aircraft available for training at most places plays into the whole thing, and that isn't helped by the costs going up by the manufacturers playing to high end of the market.  Additionally, AOPA and EAA both have pushed Light Sport issues aside and, in fact, don't seem to mind making it the sacrificial lamb to get third class medical reform (which I am all for, by the way).

 

One of the real being overlooked where Light Sport could really make a dent is in the non-profit education programs throughout the country, which continue to point kids toward the Private Pilot rating by giving them some training in the hopes of getting them interested in aviation.  Most institutions (including schools) can't afford to take kids all the way to the rating, so they get them to solo or half way to the rating and hope they'll hang on. I haven't seen any program except Eagles Nest that aims kids at Light Sport. I believe that we could make more headway by getting the kids to a Sport Pilot license instead. They'd be much more likely to keep flying and also more likely to move up the ladder, if they so chose.  Even if they didn't, they would still be additions to the pilot community, and we need all we can get.  But there's a perception that Light Sport is for "recreation" only and can't lead to anything higher, and the whole legal morass with the Light Sport CFI rating...which AOPA and EAA npw doesn't seem to care about...is part of the problem and why nothing is really changing.  I've been to too many FAAST meetings where someone says something about Light Sport being only for the old guys, which was not our experience at all when we were running our own little flight school.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

It means to use the instruments that you have. Since the instrumentation varies so widely, trying to list out specific ways to comply would make that a complicated section.

 

The idea is if during cross country, the student flies into an area where he/she can't see, they can get back out. Teach them wings level, check speed, be conscious of terrain, and do a standard rate turn 180 degrees from current heading. If it doesn't break them out, then contact ATC for help and continue monitoring airspeed, attitude, and any possible terrain stuff. Basically, this is an extension of emergency procedures.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

It is very difficult to do the training in a plane that has absolutely no attitude indicator of any sort.

 

The cost of Light Sport planes is high and not all of the blame is on the mfg. Remember when you could buy a car with crank up windows? If you want electric you could add as an option and pay for it. Most buyers of new Light Sports want the toys and I am one of them. Take out all the extra stuff and cost would come down significantly. Light Sport planes can be the modern 150, 152 and 172's. Those involved in training need to bite the bullet and get one modern plane. Remember it can still be used for Private training.

 

Some of you might remember last March when I posted an article in the local EAA Chapter news letter criticising LSA. Well guess who stopped by me yesterday? It only took 6 months but he finally did come to discuss it with me. He knew I was upset this whole time. We talked and debated for an hour. There was no question who won the debate. I then took him for a ride in the CTLS. He got out of the plane with the biggest smile you would ever see and and stated he is now a convert. He is heavily in to the Young Eagles and Young Aviators here locally and now wants to learn more and incorporate it into both of those programs. Who said an old dog can't be taught new tricks.

 

We need to have an open mind and cater to the needs of the aviation cruious.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The instrument training he is referring to is 61.93 (e) (12). There are no specifics on time or type of training. In some Light Sports (Comco Ikarus) there is no way of doing any kind of hood work. They just don't have the instruments to do it. We have the CTLS and the Ikarus so we can get it done with one plane. It only applies to aircraft with speed in excess of 87 kts so some are exempt. The problem is they don't provide the specifics. We take each student in the CT and give them a few minutes hands on and talk to them about the importance of staying out of those conditions in the first place. Most DPE and Instructors as well are unaware of this requirement but we make sure we do it and log it as such. 

 

The whole thing is ambiguous. I have talked to Oklahoma and they are aware of the mess they created and are supposed to address it and revise. 

 

Al, I knew where to find the requirement, and what it said. My question was intended to create a learning moment for 100Hamburger. He has been told by others and myself before that he is wrong on the instrument training, but still continues to spread the same dodo.

I have been doing the required instrument training since it was added to the regulations in April 2010.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

It is very difficult to do the training in a plane that has absolutely no attitude indicator of any sort.

 

 

 

I have done quite a bit of training in Cubs and other classic light sport aircraft, and don't find not having a attitude indicator to be an issue. When you are flying day VFR the nose of the airplane does a wonderful job.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Everybody keeps mixing sport pilot and light sport aircraft. While not needing to have a medical may effect the number of people who chose to get a sport pilot certificate it really should not significantly change the numbers of light sport aircraft. When the rule went into effect in 2004 it created a definition of a light sport aircraft which applies to any aircraft that meets the definition.

The big change was the addition of the light sport aircraft category to part 21 for the issuance of airworthiness certificates to new aircraft that meet ASTM standards. This has allowed new aircraft with tremendous advancements over FAA type certified aircraft to come to market. These new manufactures are ably to bring a airplane to market for a fraction of the cost of anything certified by the FAA. I really think this advancement in how the new technology can be brought to market will come to the FAA in the re-write of part 23 rules.

I think the biggest issue with getting light sport aircraft into the mainstream is teaching the existing flight school operators how they can put more money in their pocket by embracing the new technology.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

You keep saying that there is 1 hour of instrument training required for sport pilot. Please provide a source for this requirement.

 

Here is the reg:

 

61.93(e)(12).

 

Control and maneuvering solely by reference to flight instruments,

including straight and level flight, turns, descents, climbs, use of radio

aids and ATC directives. For students seeking a sport pilot certificate,

the provisions of this paragraph only apply when receiving training for

cross-country flight in an airplane that has a Vh greater than 87 knots

CAS.

 

Any Sport Pilot that wants to fly a Fllght Design CT will need the 87 kts endorsement and thus need at least 1 hour under hood, for example. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I agree that the flight schools need to be educated about the real potential of Light Sport.

 

Your previous response has me confused though. How to you see the nose in the Cubs, etc when you have goggles on?

I went back a looked. I miss the word "the" in the sentence. If you go back and look at it with "the" removed it will make sense.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

Where do you get the 1 hour time from. Even the FAA told me that there is no specific amount of time and is one of the reasons the need to clarify in a revision.

 

 

"Control and maneuvering solely by reference to flight instruments,

including straight and level flight, turns, descents, climbs..."

 

Can this be done in less than an hour?  Would it require more than an hour?  Depends on the student.  But the point remains Sport Pilots MUST receive under hood training as the regs currently stand...

 

Also the training can't be given by a CFIS (Sport Pilot CFI) if that person is not also a Private Pilot.  To get the hood time the Sport Pilot student will need to find a CFI or CFII to act as the Safety Pilot.

 

14 CFR 91.109

 

b.  No person may operate a civil aircraft in simulated instrument flight unless—

(1) The other control seat is occupied by a safety pilot who possesses at least a private pilot certificate with category and class ratings appropriate to the aircraft being flown.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Here is the reg:

 

61.93(e)(12).

 

Control and maneuvering solely by reference to flight instruments,

including straight and level flight, turns, descents, climbs, use of radio

aids and ATC directives. For students seeking a sport pilot certificate,

the provisions of this paragraph only apply when receiving training for

cross-country flight in an airplane that has a Vh greater than 87 knots

CAS.

 

Any Sport Pilot that wants to fly a Fllght Design CT will need the 87 kts endorsement and thus need the 1 hour under hood, for example. 

 

This rule does not apply to sport pilots. It applies to student pilots. Any sport pilot student can get their sport pilot rating in a aircraft with a Vh less than 87kts without any instrument training. If they desire after getting their sport pilot certificate they can transition into the CT still without any requirement for instrument training. However they do need the greater than 87kt endorsement. If they did their training before April 2010 they do not require any instrument training.

The big key here is that there are many scenarios where a sport pilot transitioning to private pilot may need all 3 hours of instrument training required for private pilot

Link to comment
Share on other sites

"Control and maneuvering solely by reference to flight instruments,

including straight and level flight, turns, descents, climbs..."

 

Can this be done in less than an hour?  Would it require more than an hour?  Depends on the student.  But the point remains Sport Pilots MUST recieve under hood training as the regs currently stand...

 

 

 

Again you are incorrect. There is no requirement that sport pilots receive any instrument training.

 

Student pilot seeking sport pilot privileges must have some instrument training prior to solo student cross country flight only if they are flying a airplane with a Vh greater than 87kts.

 

I have found that I can do the required training for most students in less than 1 hour.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

"Most buyers of new Light Sports want the toys and I am one of them. Take out all the extra stuff and cost would come down significantly. Light Sport planes can be the modern 150, 152 and 172's. Those involved in training need to bite the bullet and get one modern plane. Remember it can still be used for Private training."

 

Ahh, there is hope; Flight Design at least appears to be listening.  I just saw their CTSL Trainer.  I'd buy one of those with a 100HP engine and reopen our training business if I had the cash.  Good useful load (though still not as good as my SW) and I personally like training VFR pilots with analog instruments instead of glass.  

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Dynon SkyView has the capability to do both.

 

Skyview six pack is not available unless running V10 and above.  The Garmin 796 has a six pack also.  I never refer to the round gauge simulations.

 

The Flight Design CTMC is built to be a trainer, but the only difference is the all metal wing and struts.  The product is the same

in all other aspects and is cheaper as are all current models if you order it with round gauges instead of glass.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

×
×
  • Create New...