Remos down

[Patrnflyr]

Just noticed a Remos went down in Espanola, NM with two fatalities. Don't know much else about it. Maybe someone can add data as it becomes available.

 

http://krqe.com/2016/03/11/state-police-plane-crashes-near-espanola/

[rtk]

Very sad, RIP aviators.

 

How did you hear it was a Remos?  just curious as the article doesn't specify or give a tail number.

[Patrnflyr]

http://www.abqjournal.com/739586/abqnewsseeker/police-id-two-killed-in-espanola-area-plane-crash.html

[CT4ME]

Sad.  RIP.  Much more info here....

Link

[FastEddieB]

Heartbreaking.

 

I started to watch the "First Solo" video and just can't.

[Howardnmn]

FastEddieB: I did the exact same thing.  

[Cluemeister]

Eddie, do these get harder to take after many years of flying?  

[rtk]

Thanks Patrnflyer.  Very, very sad.  As a student pilot who is check-ride ready (and flying a Remos), I can't bring myself to watch Karen Young's solo video.  And the Remos I'm flying has almost the same tail number which spooks me just that much more.

 

Rest In Peace, Karen and Thomas.

[FlyingMonkey]

Nothing to indicate cause...anybody hear anything on that?

[Patrnflyr]

Another forum said stall spin on the crosswind to downwind turn

[gbigs]

Another forum said stall spin on the crosswind to downwind turn

 

That would be a terrible mistake and if true one made by turning too steep in the pattern.

[rtk]

If true that it was a stall spin, then the Remos was flying really slow.  If turning crosswind to downwind, they likely wouldn't have had flaps in yet.  In clean configuration, stall speed is about 44 knots.  Normally, the Remos recovers from stalls very gracefully.  I wonder what happened, and whether the Remos was equipped with a ballistic parachute.

[Ed Cesnalis]

That would be a terrible mistake and if true one made by turning too steep in the pattern.

 

 

Stall spin entry isn't from turning too steep in the pattern.  More likely the opposite, afraid of banking to steeply so the pilot makes a skidding left turn with too much rudder and not enough aileron.  Perhaps even high siding the stick to limit bank.  That's how you enter a spin in the pattern.

[Cluemeister]

Charlie, does the left wing still drop in this situation you described?

[gbigs]

Stall spin entry isn't from turning too steep in the pattern.  More likely the opposite, afraid of banking to steeply so the pilot makes a skidding left turn with too much rudder and not enough aileron.  Perhaps even high siding the stick to limit bank.  That's how you enter a spin in the pattern.

 

The steep turn in the pattern while low to the ground and slow is a direct cause of stall-spin.  

 

The load factor increase raises stall speed and angle of attack and when slow and low it is a disaster.  The rule is never turn greater than 30 degrees on any corner....and when turning cross to downwind make sure the throttle is wide open in the climb and reduced as pattern altitude is reached. 

 

It does seem odd to get a stall-spin on the cross to downwind since one whould still be flying with the throttle wide open just before making the turn.

[FastEddieB]

A couple points...

 

1) This is all speculation at this point. Still, if lessons can be learned from the speculation, that's a plus.

 

2) I concur with Charlie - spins from pattern altitude are almost always caused by too little bank, not too much. Pilots who are "bank shy" will tend to cheat with rudder. Then if a stall does occur, the inside wing, being the slower, stalls first and the plane will roll rapidly in that direction, spinning unless immediate recovery is initiated.

 

3) There is zero chance a chute can help from a spin in the pattern. It's over with in just a couple seconds.

 

This is from Stick and Rudder:

 

 

 

 

[FastEddieB]

If anyone hasn't seen this video of a Cirrus stall accident, its well worthwhile:

 

[Ed Cesnalis]

Charlie, does the left wing still drop in this situation you described?

 

Sure, the left wing or both wings could stall. Even if both wings stall the left will stall more deeply.

[Cluemeister]

The lesson for me under Eddie's scenario would be to avoid at all costs the urgency to the use rudder to hurry or sharpen a turn.  Please correct if I'm not getting it.

[Ed Cesnalis]

The lesson for me under Eddie's scenario would be to avoid at all costs the urgency to the use rudder to hurry or sharpen a turn.  Please correct if I'm not getting it.

 

Your getting it.  Think of a rudder as a 'fixer' no matter what phase of flight you might need the rudder to 'fix' or keep your nose into the relative wind.  If you were to hurry or sharpen a turn with it you wouldn't be fixing but instead over-fixing and favoring spin entry.

 

Also using the rudder to hurry or sharpen doesn't work, instead you skid. It is more efficient to keep your nose into the relative wind and increase bank and angle of attack to sharpen or hurry.

 

When my CTSW was delivered a 747 'instructor' dropped it off and provided a checkout.  I flew the first pattern with 30 degree banks and John suggest much steeper banks because the CTSW performed them effortlessly and they meant I was only blinded by my wing for 2 seconds.  I would use a shallower bank probably in a faster aircraft or even one with a slower roll rate but in my light sport steep turns in the pattern make sense.  To keep them safe I trim for 55kts and do the turns with no back pressure.

[IrishAl]

There's a universal response we all make when driving a car that can be very dangerous in the air, and I think recognizing it is often helpful. 

 

When you're driving in the car and you're faced with information overload or you've a sudden decision to make, the natural response is to slow down.

 

This tendency to slow down to make more time for ourselves is very dangerous in the air, and I think it is quite easy for some newly minted pilots to fall into it without realizing, especially once they begin to feel comfortable in the aircraft.  

 

There are two things that are counter-intuitive in flying:

 

            Speed = safety  (whereas in the car, speed = danger.)

            Height = safety and low = danger, which can also be counter-intuitive.

 

As you can see, the greatest care is needed when you're both low and slow.  

[FastEddieB]

Also related to driving, you turn a car by "yawing" it in two dimensions to turn in the direction in which you wish to turn.

 

That reflex is firmly ingrained, and becomes a powerful instinct when a pilot feels a sudden need to turn tighter - especially if he or she feels that more bank is not an option.

 

Or is simply not paying attention.

 

I don't think it ever goes away completely...

 

 

Taken from a little video I've probably posted before. I was just so focused on the angled approach path between the trees, that I was subtly skidding the turn to final. Of note, I didn't notice it until I watched the video - about 3:40 in...

 

 

 

 

Again, I don't think any pilot is completely immune - but proper training and continued practice will put and keep a pilot on the right path.

[Tom Baker]

The steep turn in the pattern while low to the ground and slow is a direct cause of stall-spin.  

 

The load factor increase raises stall speed and angle of attack and when slow and low it is a disaster.  The rule is never turn greater than 30 degrees on any corner....and when turning cross to downwind make sure the throttle is wide open in the climb and reduced as pattern altitude is reached. 

 

It does seem odd to get a stall-spin on the cross to downwind since one whould still be flying with the throttle wide open just before making the turn.

 

I think you mean bank not turn. I'm pretty sure you would fail the checkride if you only turned 30 degrees in the corners of the pattern.

 

When turning from crosswind to down wind if you have full throttle in my CT you will bust through pattern altitude. If you lower the nose to keep from busting altitude you will wind up to fast.

 

It is not bank angle that will cause a airplane to spin, it is being un-coordinated. I had the good fortune to learn this as a student pilot. We did stalls and spins from all kinds of attitudes. We did spins from turns both into the turn and over the top.

[FlyingMonkey]

Agreed Bill, and likewise spins are always caused by the same thing. Namely, a stall with a yaw input (uncoordinated flight).

[Ed Cesnalis]

Agreed Bill, and likewise spins are always caused by the same thing. Namely, a stall with a yaw input (uncoordinated flight).

 

Isn't it simpler?  You will spin from a skid but not a slip, right?  The yaw input needs to be towards the turn not away from it.

 

Cluemeister noted that rudder should not be used to hurry or sharpen a turn which  is a great rule, rudder can't hurry or sharpen (skid) the turn beyond being coordinated.  Sometimes coordinated is too clean/efficient and it is ok to use the rudder to slow or prevent (slip) the turn.

 

An interesting exercise is to fly a whole pattern in a slip.