Jump to content

New to me 2007 owner statement.


Buckaroo

Recommended Posts

My seller that will be delivering my CTSW this week explained performing stalls in the ct. I have many ratings so I'm experienced with stall behavior and found this stall phenomenon interesting. He told me you never do take off and departure stalls with full power as the pitch will be so high that the break can be a roller and very fast. Immediately i visioned spin!

 

Anyone can comment on this would be appreciated.

 

Maybe someone knows my plane. N653CT out of Albuquerque area. It's being delivered to me in Townsend Montana next week and being my first aircraft I'm very excited.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I have done plenty of power on stalls in the CT, but I make sure to slow below 60 before adding full power and not rush the pitch increase. It still has a very nose high attitude, but it is manageable. The thing I noticed most about stalls in the CTSW was that with 40° flaps sometimes it has a real hard stall break with some rotation, think spin entry. I remember two times in particular, one was someone else flying and they didn't keep it coordinated. The other time I was flying in rough gusty conditions. which caused the airplane to become un-coordinated right when it stalled.

 

Power off stalls with less that 40° flaps are rather mild.

 

Another neat thing compared to other airplanes is that it will climb with full power and full flaps, making stall recovery quite easy.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

My seller that will be delivering my CTSW this week explained performing stalls in the ct. I have many ratings so I'm experienced with stall behavior and found this stall phenomenon interesting. He told me you never do take off and departure stalls with full power as the pitch will be so high that the break can be a roller and very fast. Immediately i visioned spin!

 

Anyone can comment on this would be appreciated.

 

Maybe someone knows my plane. N653CT out of Albuquerque area. It's being delivered to me in Townsend Montana next week and being my first aircraft I'm very excited.

 

If the SW does that then it's totally different than the other CTs.  The plane is a full power takeoff and 60kts over the numbers lander.  And the climb rate will be rapid pushing the stick forward a bit to keep the speed up.

 

Stalling requires actual effort as the plane will simply hang there as long as you keep the ball centered.  I have done turning stalls in it...and had CFIs in the plane with me that tried to do power-on stalls and could barely get the plane to stall before it nosed over.  It's amazing how stable the plane is.....

Link to comment
Share on other sites

If the SW does that then it's totally different than the other CTs.  The plane is a full power takeoff plane.  And the climb rate will be rapid pushing the stick forward a bit to keep the speed up.

 

Stalling requires actual effort as the plane will simply hang there as long as you keep the ball centered.  I have done turning stalls in it...and had CFIs in the plane with me that tried to do power-on stalls and could barely get the plane to stall before it nosed over.  It's amazing how stable the plane is.....

 

You do get different results depending on how you enter.  Minimize your pitch attitude and bleed speed off gradually and you will hang on the prop.  Pull back more abruptly from a higher entry speed and you can find a climb path that will result in a dramatic break.

 

You can do it either way depending on what side of the line you do it on.

 

Edit:  I know this is true 2 ways: 1) I do whip stalls in my ct;  2) Even though a CT will hang on its prop if stall is reached gradually the CT cannot climb vertically. (or hang on its prop vertically) If it cannot climb vertically then there is a pitch attitude too steep for it to hang on its prop.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Yes everything I read and hear from owners seems to indicate they are amazingly stable aircraft! My plane arrives next Saturday and I'm trying to learn as much as possible about her so I keep the surprises at bay!

 

A few questions I'd have as well are:

 

Will the nose dump with full flaps in a forward slip?

 

Aircraft stability with accelerated stalls? Flap to no flap.

 

Gliding is the engine sensitive to getting too cold at minimum rpm?

 

Full stick back soft field takeoffs does she get squirrelly at nose high lift off?

 

Just a few come to mind.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

You do get different results depending on how you enter.  Minimize your pitch attitude and bleed speed off gradually and you will hang on the prop.  Pull back more abruptly from a higher entry speed and you can find a climb path that will result in a dramatic break.

 

You can do it either way depending on what side of the line you do it on.

 

Edit:  I know this is true 2 ways: 1) I do whip stalls in my ct;  2) Even though a CT will hang on its prop if stall is reached gradually the CT cannot climb vertically. (or hang on its prop vertically) If it cannot climb vertically then there is a pitch attitude too steep for it to hang on its prop.

Is it your feeling that a spin would be easily corrected? Would these ever flat spin if cg's were ok in your opinion?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Don't spin a CT or even think about it. One of the chute pulls was from the factory test pilot that could not recover from a spin. Many have lables in them to not spin. You risk everything to try a maneuver that will serve you no purpose.

By golly that answered my question! Thanks Roger! I'll be looking you up for routine maintenance on her!

 

I'm a eager new owner so I'll be asking questions on this great forum. I'll try to search answers first but it is nice just chatting with folks too!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

In my opinion, here's what you want to know to fly your CTSW.

 

  • Lots of adverse yaw and no view of the nose (reference the ball)
  • Slip skid ball is probably wrong, use sight tubes to learn true center and fly there for even fuel drain
  • Drooped wing tips, when level indicate proper approach speed for 30* flaps. Make it easy trim for this speed.
  • Most crashes come from planting nose wheel in a rut. Learn to control your nose wheel, learn to keep it up.
  • Its a pitch attitude airplane, fly with your ball caged and reasonable attitudes and you are safe, you can't stall without pulling the stick back.
  • Check your sight tubes in flight to maintain fuel balance.  (fuel follows the ball)
  • If you ever get fuel critical fly so that fuel in the remaining tank is visible.  This will tell you when it is about to be exhausted so that you can land first and if you can see that remaining fuel so can your engine.  If you can't see it, it is unported and you will starve with fuel remaining.

Most here don't agree with me. :) Difference are mostly on flying it on vs landing with 30* flaps at minimum speed and then rolling out with or without your nose wheel elevated.  Others argue there is a pitching moment that forces them onto their nosewheels but they don't have their sticks full aft and their throttles closed so their planes want to 'pitch' to its trim speed / attitude which is faster and nose down.

 

You may want to save 40* landings till you get used to the plane and then only use them in a good energy state when near the ground.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Oh yes spins.  No big concern you have to stall first, trim for climb and then cruise speeds and don't pull the stick back from there. Make sure your AP doesn't misbehave as well.

 

My guess is that you would need left rudder and right flaperon to enter a spin and there's never a reason to do this.  Maybe a touch on a high speed descending right turn but not in the pattern, not on base to final to sharpen the turn and maintain a max bank angle.

 

I fly frequently in the 13-14,000' peaks in California and I no longer reference my instruments when doing so except my slip/skid ball. Its not a scary design as long as you learn to land it.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

In my opinion, here's what you want to know to fly your CTSW.

 

 

  • Lots of adverse yaw and no view of the nose (reference the ball)
  • Slip skid ball is probably wrong, use sight tubes to learn true center and fly there for even fuel drain
  • Drooped wing tips, when level indicate proper approach speed for 30* flaps. Make it easy trim for this speed.
  • Most crashes come from planting nose wheel in a rut. Learn to control your nose wheel, learn to keep it up.
  • Its a pitch attitude airplane, fly with your ball caged and reasonable attitudes and you are safe, you can't stall without pulling the stick back.
  • Check your sight tubes in flight to maintain fuel balance.  (fuel follows the ball)
  • If you ever get fuel critical fly so that fuel in the remaining tank is visible.  This will tell you when it is about to be exhausted so that you can land first and if you can see that remaining fuel so can your engine.  If you can't see it, it is unported and you will starve with fuel remaining.
Most here don't agree with me. :) Difference are mostly on flying it on vs landing with 30* flaps at minimum speed and then rolling out with or without your nose wheel elevated.  Others argue there is a pitching moment that forces them onto their nosewheels but they don't have their sticks full aft and their throttles closed so their planes want to 'pitch' to its trim speed / attitude which is faster and nose down.

 

You may want to save 40* landings till you get used to the plane and then only use them in a good energy state when near the ground.

Great helpful information! Thanks for the personal perspective on these planes! New bee Buckaroo!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Yes everything I read and hear from owners seems to indicate they are amazingly stable aircraft! My plane arrives next Saturday and I'm trying to learn as much as possible about her so I keep the surprises at bay!

 

A few questions I'd have as well are:

 

Will the nose dump with full flaps in a forward slip?

 

Aircraft stability with accelerated stalls? Flap to no flap.

 

Gliding is the engine sensitive to getting too cold at minimum rpm?

 

Full stick back soft field takeoffs does she get squirrelly at nose high lift off?

 

Just a few come to mind.

 

A full flap landing is an argument among some owners. The book calls for a 15 flap landing, 60kts over the numbers. Some like full stall landings full flap config.

 

The nose pitches up abruptly on flap changes.  Once stable slipping any flap config will not affect the nose.    If practicing powered stalls do them flaps zero.  If slow flight stalls make sure not to exceed flap speeds when flaps are extended. 

 

The engine is not sensitive to descents the way the big Continentals are...the prop is fixed, ground adjustable so you wont feel any difference in drag when reducing throttle (no prop control or fuel mix in the CTLSi).  You can glide to land at idle from abeam the numbers to approach and final from pattern altitude.  Soft field takeoffs will abruptly go skyward if you do not push the stick forward just as you start to leave the runway. 

 

You may want to find someone experienced in the plane and do a little transition training.  The plane is agile, quick, and the stick/rudder skills are more necessary since the plane is light and the stick very responsive.  The landing profile is also different with the nose tapering off quickly you can't use the nose to align with the center of the runway, you will need to put the line between your rudder pedals and legs.  And the nose will seem too high just prior to touchdown if you do it correctly.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I've done some teaching in the CTSW and generally concur with what everyone's said here.  A full power stall does have a very high nose attitude, but...like controlling any stall in any other airplane...the key to the behavior is proper coordination more than anything else.  I've done lots of power off stalls with the flaps at 40 and same comment.  if there is a rolloff, it's always controllable with rudder to pick up a wing and I've never felt the ailerons were ineffective.  I use both.

 

The CTSW is very much a rudder airplane.  As folks have mentioned, the short nose and wide cockpit mean it's best not to use the nose for yaw alignment during landing; put the runway in the middle of you body.  Even if you fall back into old habits and forget that, you'll generally land slightly cocked and a little off centerline but usually not enough to make it unsafe. The airplane is very pitch sensitive so it takes some polish not to overcontrol her a bit during landing; and, since there's no real friction lock on the trim wheel, you're going to have to reset the trim more than you'd like.  Power management during landing is a function of whether the airplane is floating or sinking; and the low inertia means a little power goes a long way and so does a little drag.  Because of the latter, the airplane generally lands better with a little power...but, as I said, it's function of the energy state. (That said, for soft field landings, I use power after touchdown to help hold the nose up.)  Bottom line: I've flown several light sports and the CT is not the easiest but every airplane has its quirks and the CT is one of the best all around LSA's out there.  Transition training is very important in all LSA's and that's true here for the reasons cited.  If you get it, make sure it's with someone who has flown the airplane or at least has some Light Sport experience; too many instructors assume they're a lesser airplane because of their size and nothing could be further from the truth, which is why more high time pilots get in trouble with them than anyone else.

 

The nose pitch up with flaps isn't any more than you see in the Cessna 150/172 series (but is much more significant than in some LSA's like the Remos).  I use slips all the time but generally only need them with zero or flaps at 15; the descents with flaps at 30 or 40 are very steep and down at 54 knots, so I've never had the need to go there...just pull off the power with the flaps full down and she'll come down in a hurry.  Very stable in a slip.

 

Soft field takeoffs have not been an issue for me.  Like any other airplane, put the stick in your lap, hit the power; and as the nose comes up, release stick pressure just enough to fly the nose. 

 

One thing I've noticed recently is that for crosswind takeoffs with the winds around 5 knots or more and with the flaps at 15, when the airplane is in the two point attitude nose high, rudder authority seems poor close to the calm wind rotation speed (42 knots) but gets good very quickly after.  Hold her on the ground a little longer too get a few more knots and it all works out.  I haven't seen that issue during soft field takeoffs but haven't done a lot of them in moderate to high crosswinds; rudder authority doing the soft field has never seemed to be an issue so far.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Again great comments and recommendations that will help me transition to this aircraft more smoothly!

 

It's funny how high time pilots can get ham handed going to a very responsive ac like this. I once checked out a F18 jockey in a Beech Sierra. During the first take off he pulled or ripped the plane into the air so fast it scared the stuff out of me I had to grab the yoke.

 

Thanks for taking the time to respond!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Yes everything I read and hear from owners seems to indicate they are amazingly stable aircraft! My plane arrives next Saturday and I'm trying to learn as much as possible about her so I keep the surprises at bay!

 

A few questions I'd have as well are:

 

Will the nose dump with full flaps in a forward slip?

 

Aircraft stability with accelerated stalls? Flap to no flap.

 

Gliding is the engine sensitive to getting too cold at minimum rpm?

 

Full stick back soft field takeoffs does she get squirrelly at nose high lift off?

 

Just a few come to mind.

 

Some have provided good answers, I will throw a little more information out there. I had a CTSW from July 2007 until January 2009. In February 2009 I bought a CTLS. I have about 400 hours in mine and others CTSW's, 600 plus in mine and others CTLS, and a few hours in a couple different CTLSi.

 

The control system in the CT is designed so ailerons also operate with the flaps (flaperons). Because of this feature it allows the airplane to have a very slow stall speed and it will operate from very short runways. When flaps are applied adverse yaw becomes more pronounced, because with aileron application you are creating much more drag on the side opposite to the direction you are pushing the stick. When you get the airplane put on full flaps and have someone hold the stick to the side and you will see what I mean.

Because of this use caution making crosswind landings with more than 15° flaps. There has been more than one case of CT's having the downwind wing stall and drop un-expectantly causing damage to the airplane.

 

I have not done it often, but the airplane will slip with full flaps. Because of the above explanation, and the closeness to stall speed with full flap operation I personally try to avoid slips with full flaps. 

 

Gliding with the engine at idle won't hurt anything, but if the outside air temperature is cold your oil temp might drop below the 50°C/122°F minimum limit.

 

I don't remember soft field takeoffs being an issue in the CTSW, but in the CTLS you need to be mindful of dragging the tail. The procedure that I teach is 15° flaps and the stick full aft. Slow application of power, in the CTLS if power is applied to fast you will bang the tail on the ground. When the nose lifts I hold the base of the windshield on the horizon to establish pitch attitude, and then bring in full power. This works well in the CTLS, and would be a good starting point for the CTSW.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Slips with flaps 40 in the CTSW are safe with no unusual characteristics except a steep approach.

 

I feel they should be taught with every aircraft check out and refreshed during a flight review. Not because you will use this maneuver very often, but because every check out should cover all of the planes capabilities. I don't want a person i've given a check out to then have an accident because of something I neglected to teach.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I have about 700  crosswind landings with 30* flaps.  I am not in agreement that 30* should be avoided in crosswinds.  If you look to published stall speeds you will see same or similar numbers for 30* vs 15* but 30* landings is where landing at minimum speed works well.  The law of primacy will apply here, if you begin with minimal flaps to learn landings you will be a fly it on guy.  If you begin with 30* you will probably be a land at minimum speed guy.  I believe it all stems from the early training or in this case the transition training.

 

30* normal landings:  slow down to zero flap speed to enter pattern and arrive abeam with zero and 80kts.  When abeam cut power to idle and deploy 15* flaps.  Hold nose level for a few seconds and deploy 30* at 62kts.  Put the nose down with 30* to level wing tips and trim for 50-55kts.  It only takes one trim adjustment for me.

 

30* approaches with closed throttle are steep and round out should be low and kinda dramatic.  My CTSW works well with stick full aft by touch down.  Rapid sink is to be avoided keep your right hand on the throttle and be ready to advance it if needed.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

As to your original question, I usually practice power on stalls at 4000-4500rpm.  You can do them at higher rpm, but the angle gets pretty severe and the stall behavior is pretty much the same so there is not much benefit to it, unless you just want to see what it feels like.  The nose will really just bob, there is not much break if any when power on.  But do watch that ball and keep it centered as always.  

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'll bet I'll end up a minimul flap CT jockey as slow and steep is not my cup of tea. In Cessna's I always only used full flap landings for short field work.

 

Building onto this knowledge base I have another question. How does this bird feel in a nice banked accelerated stall with some flaps?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Andy, can you really say there is no break with power on?  Wanna go for a ride with me? :)

 

As I said above the CT cannot do a vertical climb, it will break at full power.

 

Sure you can gradually approach stall and even do it with partial throttle to minimize the angle and prevent any break but the idea of a power on stall isn't to see how benign you can make it.  If you make it a non-event what did it teach you?

 

I had my assistant put a camera bag right on the stick and initiate a steep spiral.  I let it go on to see how long it would take for him to react.  He never did.  A passenger could be the reason for you power on near stall condition.

 

You couldn't whip stall my CT without me seeing it coming even with my head in a chart.  But isn't this what we are practicing for?

 

I'm not advocating that low time pilots start doing dramatic power on stalls on their own but I think its a bad idea to come away form this training thinking that a power on stall is a bobble only.  A power on stall can be a dramatic event that absolutely requires you to retard the throttle to recover at a safe speed.  Even if you don't practice it be aware that its the worse case scenario and you could possible have to recover and since its a departure event you might have to recover very quickly.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'll bet I'll end up a minimul flap CT jockey as slow and steep is not my cup of tea. In Cessna's I always only used full flap landings for short field work.

 

Building onto this knowledge base I have another question. How does this bird feel in a nice banked accelerated stall with some flaps?

 

These are used as trainers in many schools. It would be interesting to see how Flight instructors are teaching takeoff stalls!

 

Your right you are already a member of the majority club.

 

Banked accelerated stalls with flaps behave as expected my CTSW.  Its mostly a non-event if you don't exceed the critical angle of attack by much and stay coordinated.  Left rudder and right stick while doing them could lead to spin entry for sure.

 

I'm sure most instructors teach recovery at first sign of approaching stall and show that it is generally a non-event.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Well thanks to everyone here this is a great forum! I'm receiving the plane Saturday and the seller Guy Jones will go over her with me. My flight instructor will then come out and give me a Biannual and check me out in the plane.

 

I'll be a little more ahead of the game thanks to you good people!

 

Dave

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

×
×
  • Create New...