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Oil tank: Not filling with oil


Linden1

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Help, Unable to detect any oil in oil tank.

 

CTLS sat for two months after flying home from annual. Temp today is17 although used reiff heater over night. Burped the engine extensively, gurgling sound, but dip stick bone dry. Started engine ran fine, temp to 134, turned off, burped again no oil on dip stick.

 

Noticed fresh blown oil on ground, the pattern looked like it was coming from the exhaust. Bottom of plane clean, no oil observed any where on engine. No oil dripping from tube. Have never had a problem with the oil tank. 460 hours on engine.

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Help, Unable to detect any oil in oil tank.

 

CTLS sat for two months after flying home from annual. Temp today is17 although used reiff heater over night. Burped the engine extensively, gurgling sound, but dip stick bone dry. Started engine ran fine, temp to 134, turned off, burped again no oil on dip stick.

 

Noticed fresh blown oil on ground, the pattern looked like it was coming from the exhaust. Bottom of plane clean, no oil observed any where on engine. No oil dripping from tube. Have never had a problem with the oil tank. 460 hours on engine.

 

Wow.  Don't run your engine if you don't see oil on the stick.  Add oil till you see it mid stick.   Did you check it before flying home from your annual?  It can leak during flight if the oil plug is loose or the compression washer on the oil plug is bad or was not replaced after the oil change.

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Sometimes with a fresh oil change the oil can be almost impossible to see, especially when the viscosity is thin from being warm. I have had to lay the dipstick on a paper towel to get a reading in this case.

 

One of the things that was repeated many times when I did my Rotax training was that Rotax engines really do not like it when there is no oil pressure. Did you have oil pressure when you were running the engine?

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First is as Tom says that fresh oil can be very hard to see. Tom's idea on a blue paper shop towel would also make it stand out. Wipe the stick clean and dry. Dip it in and then take your fingers and wipe it at the top of the flat part. If your fingers get oily wet then you have oil to that level. If you don't have wet fingers then keep moving down the stick and see if at any point you get oily fingers or it is truly dry. I'm guessing it's just clear oil and you can't see it.

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Used a paper towel and had oil pressure although I do recall on the way back that it was jumping around which I told my mechanic. Today the pressure was 60 at startup and then dropped to a range of 31-36. There is no sign of an oil leak in the engine compartment or under the plane. Bottom of tank looked good.

 

I will check with my mechanic and add oil. Hard to believe there is not enough to even touch the bottom of the stick. There was a gurgling sound with almost every pull which is usually not the case.

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Facts 1 to 3

Low oil level after extensive burp

Oil discharge on ground (appears to coincide with exhaust trajectory) after engine start and run

Bottom of plane clean?

 

Based on the first two facts, i would determine for sure if oil is coming from the exhaust or other.

Is the inside of the exhaust pipe oily or dry?

Inspect spark plugs?

 

I have found that even a slight score or poor seating of the drain plug in the oil tank can allow total loss of oil in the tank over time and the residue, since it is a very slow process, almost impossible to detect on the cowl. Long shot here - Have you have a fan running that could be blowing drips away from the oil tank/cowl onto the floor?

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Dean Vogel (Rotax tech support rep), at Lockwood, gave us some very good advice.

During oil changes, never, ever let anything interupt the endeavor. Once an oil change is started, finish it. He said, "that phone call can wait!"

 

According to Dean, on more than one occasion, he has fielded calls on engine siezure (during ground runs), only to discover an engine was started and run without oil. Needless to say, the events did not last too long.

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Looks like we can rule out that this engine was run without oil.  How about a intake valve seal leaking which will allow oil to leak into the cylinder and be burned?  This oil would not show as a leak.  It might show as a oil spray from the exhaust, which Linden1 shows in his picture.

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Looks like we can rule out that this engine was run without oil.  How about a intake valve seal leaking which will allow oil to leak into the cylinder and be burned?  This oil would not show as a leak.  It might show as a oil spray from the exhaust, which Linden1 shows in his picture.

 

He ran the engine without the oil registering on the stick.  There is no evidence he had enough oil in the engine to run it without damage, only that he had more than zero oil since he found residue after running it coming from the exhaust.

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Not true that "there is no evidence he had enough oil to run it without damage".  The engine didn't show overheat and he indicates there was 31 psi oil pressure. This is evidence he might have lucked out by starting with adequate oil and lost most of it during his flight home and retained enough to keep the engine adequately oiled.

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Not sure this is worth arguing about. Some have forgotten to put oil back in the tank after a change. I have talked to 2 like that and they didn't lose their engine. That said I'm glad it wasn't me.

 

Bottom line for our discussion is you either do or don't have a proper oil level after you gurgle the tank. If you don't, fill it.

 

If you did , but don't have enough now where did it go. It went some place. Either you didn't gurgle the tank well and there is a lot still in the crankcase, it leaked out somewhere or it burned out and through the exhaust. If it was the latter two it WILL be on the bottom of the plane and or the engine or in the exhaust pipe. There are only so many ways oil can not be in the tank..

 

 

And I'm with Tom as far as many times when putting in fresh oil you may install 3 liters and it's just plain hard to see on the dip stick. I have even seen a few make a wooden dipstick to make it easier.

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No oil in an expensive engine is TOO real world for me. I just had two callers that said they did an oil change and forgot to put the oil back in and when it started they didn't have any oil pressure and after  a short time (don't know what short time means), but they shut it down and then the panic of what they did set in. I told them to put the oil in and do 2 oil purges. Then try again. Both seemed to be okay, but who knows if there is any long term damage. I haven't heard back from either.

 

 

Don't you guys remember the first synthetic oil commercials on TV. They wouldn't put any oil in and run the engine to show how great and wonderful their oil was.

I imagine that if the no oil situation run was short enough (who knows how long that might be) that you may get away without any issues, but what an expensive roll of the dice that would be.

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It wasn't a Rotax, but I can tell you from personal experience it is a sickening feeling when an engine slows and stops with a screech. In my case I had put oil in the engine, but the engine stopped from some work I had done. The actual cause was the persons who had done the previous overhaul had not follow the manufactures procedures, and used a sealant on the cylinder bases where it shouldn't have been used. This caused the cylinder base nuts to loosen and one fell off. The Lycoming tech rep said to reinstall and follow the complete cylinder torqueing sequence. I did, but the damage had already been done. The looseness had allowed the case halves to fret an wear. When it was tightened back down they had worn enough to create metal to metal contact between the bearings and crankshaft. On the next call to the Lycoming tech rep I explained what happened, and he calmly said well now at least you know what you need to do to fix the problem.

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