Best Landing set up for a newbie . . .

[ibjet]

I am a newbie, just bought my 2006 CTSW. I don't have any local CT flyers or even LSA flyers (Kingman, AZ).

 

I wrote my own flying perameters list so that I could memorize the speeds, flap settings, etc.

But then, I read on the forum here that many (some?) recommend cutting to idle toward the end of the downwind leg. I also read that many (some?) recommend flying at 60 kts on final.

 

The landing instructions that I have from FD say fly final at 54 kts and carry 10/20% power. Then, at 3' above the runway, cut power and flare.

 

OK, the other day I got brave and flew it for the first time. I ended up doing a long straight in at 60 kts but carried a little throttle. And, I cut throttle when I decided it was time to flare.

 

Well, I pulled back too much and it ballooned up a bit. Instead of jerking the stick forward to dump the air, I neutralized it and gave it a short tap of throttle. Then, I went back into my flare with the right amount/timing of back pressure on the stick.

 

The engine responded instantly and I got a nice little lift and boost of speed.

 

So, I'm feeling that using 10/20% power on final is a good thing, especially for a newbie who may

need to add some power or even do a go around.

 

The issue is whether or not the engine will over cool if you cut to idle in the pattern. And, I guess it would make a difference whether we are talking summer or winter, warm climate or cold.

 

I would like to add that I tried to do a go around one evening with my Mooney M20C and the engine stumbled when I applied power abruptly (that turned my missed approach into a long landing, luckily not too long)! 

 

For now until I find out better, I will do landings at 60 kts (15 degrees flaps) and 10/20% power.

 

But, I'd love to hear opinions to the contrary! And, I'd love to hear discussion about using carburetor heat (when you go to idle?).

 

Thanks, 

 

ET

 

 

[ibjet]

Oops, subject should say "Newbie" not Newie.

[CT2kflyer]

Never force it down, you'll just get a bounce........ let it land itself, use a little power on it like you are, and flare when it's time.  The published FD figures you quoted are pretty good............. 

 

Engine will not cool to much....... it's WATER cooled at the heads and that helps it maintain even temps.  Lastly, I've never had my plane hesitate when power is applied...... it's basically instantly responsive.  That doesn't mean it can't fail........ it just never has.... and I have full confidence in the Rotax....... 

 

Wish you had an experience CTSW/LSA flying buddy/Instructor.  

 

Finally.......... the hardest thing you'll probably have to get your head around, is the use of the parachute.  Most of us were trained to go directly into the engine-out mode of operation;  establish glide, fly the airplane, look for a place to put it down, etc.  You've never had the option of using a chute.

 

 Cirrus  now has a program established to re-train pilots to use the available chutes when it all goes wrong.  Cirrus figured that more than a hundred pilots lost their lives, in survivable incidents, because they never bothered to use the chutes that were available to save their lives.  They always kept trying to fly and save the plane... right into the deck, with fatal results.  You are going to have to re-train your brain into accepting another option.... the chute.   (I had an emergency once, and I worked myself through it when in retrospect I probably should have used the chute..... but with my prior training kicking in, it never crossed my mind.....I was too busy trying to survive)  

 

 I've had to consciously re-train my thought patterns.  I've still never used it, and I never expect to, but at least now, I'll always consider if it isn't the best option.)  

 

I have my own personal minimums......... engine out over rocky/mountain terrain, or trees.... try and get to an open area and use the chute.  Engine out below 800 ft AGL, use the chute.  I will not try the impossible turn back to the airport if I'm not above 800' at a minimum.  If I have full control and a flat open area ahead of the aircraft, I may well attempt to land forward...... but the chute is a option I might avail myself of.   I have to remind myself now and then, that I always have another option.

 

Besides, I can always get another airplane; that's what insurance is for.

[ibjet]

Thanks for that nice long input, appreciated very much!

About the BRS, I freaked out when I read "remove the safety pin from the BRS handle" on the check list! But, I got my head around that (by thinking about how far my airplane could go in a second, especially if it is in a spin or dive).

 

Off topic, what altitude do you fly out of? Wondering what you have done to adjust your carburation for higher altitude flying? I know the Bings adjust for altitude, but you can still fine tune that (I believe the needle has notches and then there are different size needle jets)?

I am used to cruising at 11,500 to 12,500 on trips (when I was last flying, that was my M20C Mooney). So, I'm gonna see what the practical ceiling will be for cruising altitudes with the CTSW. My airport altitude is 3400 ft. but I will fly into airports at near sea level often (Bullhead AZ area).

I should mention that I already went thru training (at Rainbow Aviation) and got my Repairman certificate (figured that was survival, with no local CT or ​Rotax mechanics around). I plan to get the equipment to synchronize my carbs, that will be exciting, ha ha!

 

[Roger Lee]

Hi Ibjet,

 

I live in Tucson, AZ if you need any help along the way. If you are flying out of Kingman and going to lower elevations along with the higher ones leave the carbs alone. You may find yourself in the perfect storm so to speak and cause engine damage or leaks from playing with the carbs all the time making some adjustment. Your plane will fly just fine with factory settings. Your prop pitch would be a more important factor to make sure you're set up properly.

[ibjet]

Thanks Roger!

So, what would you say is the practical service ceiling for a CTSW? Could I cruise at 9,500/10,500 ft. on a cross country trip? Normally, the higher the better economy, but if the Bings are not leaning enough, you would be running too rich and defeating the purpose. Is there any way that you know of to determine if you are leaned enough at those higher cruising altitudes. I do not have a EGT gage. Maybe that would be a good investment!

 

Just curious, where did you get your Repairman training? I thought Rainbow Aviation was really good (crammed way too much in way too short of a period, but some really brilliant students shared their really thorough notes from the lectures).

 

ET

[Tom Baker]

A couple things reading through here. One you said, "Instead of jerking the stick forward to dump the air". Pushing the sick forward on a landing is never a good thing, unless it is a wheel landing with a tailwheel airplane. I teach students that on landing the stick should only move on direction, and that is back. If the airplane starts to balloon you can stop pulling back for a moment, but don't push the stick forward. This really applies to landings in most aircraft, not just the CT.

 

The other is the parachute. When I got my first CT in 2007 I was reluctant to pull the parachute pin. Then I was in a Flight Design dealer meeting when a fellow from BRS was there to do a presentation. He talked about an accident where the parachute handle was nearly pulled from the aircraft structure. There was damage from pulling on the handle. The accident investigation showed the pin was still in place. We also had a chance to sit in a mock up seat with a actual BRS handle, and was able to feel what it was like to make a pull. You can not accidently pull the handle and deploy the parachute. When I returned home my ignition key was placed on the parachute safety pin. Now you can't fly my airplane without having the pin removed.

[Roger Lee]

I worked on Rotax before LSA, but did Rainbow when I had to be legal. Been to way too many Rotax classes and still go. I'm a Rotax instructor.

Your main problem is you don't stay at high altitudes. You fly low and high. 

Yes you can easily cruise at your 9-10K without any issues. We all do it all the time especially if you come out to the Page, AZ Fly-In this year.I have a couple of friends that have been over 18K. Yes the engine is running rich up high, but you don't stay there forever.

If you lived at an airport that was at 7K and always flew at 10-13K then I would say make the adjustment.

 

Think of the engine more along the line as a motorcycle engine. Look at all the motorcycles that travel at high elevations. They do just fine.

 

Don't over think your plane. Just go enjoy it.

[FlyingMonkey]

Your landing experience is a classic example of how the CT lands.  If you carry excess speed, you have to be *very* ginger with your pitch inputs, or you will balloon.  There are two possible correct responses to the balloon:  go around (safest), or add a little power as you did and salvage the landing by avoiding a high sink rate when the airplane runs out of energy at the top of the balloon.

 

It's fairly easy to make a "fly on" landing at 60kt.  But it also is a faster approach and eats up some runway as that speed *must* come out before touchdown.  The FD guidance of 54kt is a very good speed to be on for final IMO.  I usually fly base at 57-60kt, and final at 48-55kt depending on conditions and where I'm landing.

 

Using a lower speed will cause a steeper approach, but the ballooning problem becomes much less pronounced.  And if something does go badly wrong, there is less energy to dissipate into the crash.  The airplane is much more controllable on the ground touching down at 42-45kt than rolling on at 50kt+ if you land under power.  I do sometimes carry a little power when landing on short fields very slowly.  I did a slow approach over the weekend to a grass field at 48kt in calm winds at 30° flaps, and held a small amount of power into the landing and it worked out well.

 

As Roger has said, there are a lot of ways to land a CT, and they all work.  Everybody ends up with a favorite technique developed by their experience.  As you are figuring all this out I'd suggest not being afraid of trying slower speeds, especially on final.  If you get too slow it will become apparent in a high sink rate, which you can easily adjust out with throttle to arrest the sink, or by lowering the nose to pick up a little speed. 

[FlyingMonkey]

Thanks Roger!

So, what would you say is the practical service ceiling for a CTSW? Could I cruise at 9,500/10,500 ft. on a cross country trip? Normally, the higher the better economy, but if the Bings are not leaning enough,

 

You definitely can, I flew most of the way to and from Oshkosh at 9500ft.  Best efficiency for non-turbocharged engines is about 7500-8500ft, that should be your best thrust-to-drag height.  But 9500ft and higher work fine in a CT.  I have flown at 10,500ft for terrain clearance with no problems.

[Tom Baker]

You definitely can, I flew most of the way to and from Oshkosh at 9500ft.  

 

Someone was not following the regulations for cruising altitude.

[FlyingMonkey]

Someone was not following the regulations for cruising altitude.

 

We flew almost a dead north/south route.  We are in full compliance.  We're not simpletons that just draw a direct-to line and go.  

[Roger Lee]

"Alternative Fact" altitude.  

[FlyingMonkey]

"Alternative Fact" altitude.  

 

Tom's assertion is "fake news".  

[ralarcon]

I am a newbie, just bought my 2006 CTSW. I don't have any local CT flyers or even LSA flyers (Kingman, AZ).

 

I wrote my own flying perameters list so that I could memorize the speeds, flap settings, etc.

But then, I read on the forum here that many (some?) recommend cutting to idle toward the end of the downwind leg. I also read that many (some?) recommend flying at 60 kts on final.

 

The landing instructions that I have from FD say fly final at 54 kts and carry 10/20% power. Then, at 3' above the runway, cut power and flare.

 

OK, the other day I got brave and flew it for the first time. I ended up doing a long straight in at 60 kts but carried a little throttle. And, I cut throttle when I decided it was time to flare.

 

Well, I pulled back too much and it ballooned up a bit. Instead of jerking the stick forward to dump the air, I neutralized it and gave it a short tap of throttle. Then, I went back into my flare with the right amount/timing of back pressure on the stick.

 

The engine responded instantly and I got a nice little lift and boost of speed.

 

So, I'm feeling that using 10/20% power on final is a good thing, especially for a newbie who may

need to add some power or even do a go around.

 

The issue is whether or not the engine will over cool if you cut to idle in the pattern. And, I guess it would make a difference whether we are talking summer or winter, warm climate or cold.

 

I would like to add that I tried to do a go around one evening with my Mooney M20C and the engine stumbled when I applied power abruptly (that turned my missed approach into a long landing, luckily not too long)! 

 

For now until I find out better, I will do landings at 60 kts (15 degrees flaps) and 10/20% power.

 

But, I'd love to hear opinions to the contrary! And, I'd love to hear discussion about using carburetor heat (when you go to idle?).

 

Thanks, 

 

ET

 

N40HA2.jpg

Briefly, flaps 15 and fly it to the runway.

 

Cheers

[Tom Baker]

We flew almost a dead north/south route.  We are in full compliance.  We're not simpletons that just draw a direct-to line and go.  

 

What altitude did you fly to get to that dead north south route? I used to live in Effingham IL, and made many trips to Oshkosh from there. It was literally straight North and South from there. Most of those trips I didn't get high enough to worry about the hemispherical altitude rule.

[FlyingMonkey]

What altitude did you fly to get to that dead north south route? I used to live in Effingham IL, and made many trips to Oshkosh from there. It was literally straight North and South from there. Most of those trips I didn't get high enough to worry about the hemispherical altitude rule.

 

We flew northwest at about 2000 AGL over the North Georgia Mountains to the Memphis area for lunch, then North and slightly East at 7500 for a while and then up to 9500ft.  In Illinois weather forced us westward to Quad City on the Iowa border, which we flew to at 6500ft and 8500ft.

 

I was flying with a Waiex and a Vari-EZ, they liked to climb high.  This year if I go it will be with a Cessna 170, and we probably won't get much above 3000ft AGL.

[Anticept]

Even air cooled engines aren't sensitive to shock cooling as much as people worry about. If that was a problem, why isn't anyone worried about shock heating?! It's a carryover from days long past and old metallurgy, and never really was a problem in aircraft engines.

 

Anyways, just maintain it properly and it will continue to be a loyal engine.

[coppercity]

I am a newbie, just bought my 2006 CTSW. I don't have any local CT flyers or even LSA flyers (Kingman, AZ).

 

I wrote my own flying perameters list so that I could memorize the speeds, flap settings, etc.

But then, I read on the forum here that many (some?) recommend cutting to idle toward the end of the downwind leg. I also read that many (some?) recommend flying at 60 kts on final.

 

The landing instructions that I have from FD say fly final at 54 kts and carry 10/20% power. Then, at 3' above the runway, cut power and flare.

 

OK, the other day I got brave and flew it for the first time. I ended up doing a long straight in at 60 kts but carried a little throttle. And, I cut throttle when I decided it was time to flare.

 

Well, I pulled back too much and it ballooned up a bit. Instead of jerking the stick forward to dump the air, I neutralized it and gave it a short tap of throttle. Then, I went back into my flare with the right amount/timing of back pressure on the stick.

 

The engine responded instantly and I got a nice little lift and boost of speed.

 

So, I'm feeling that using 10/20% power on final is a good thing, especially for a newbie who may

need to add some power or even do a go around.

 

The issue is whether or not the engine will over cool if you cut to idle in the pattern. And, I guess it would make a difference whether we are talking summer or winter, warm climate or cold.

 

I would like to add that I tried to do a go around one evening with my Mooney M20C and the engine stumbled when I applied power abruptly (that turned my missed approach into a long landing, luckily not too long)! 

 

For now until I find out better, I will do landings at 60 kts (15 degrees flaps) and 10/20% power.

 

But, I'd love to hear opinions to the contrary! And, I'd love to hear discussion about using carburetor heat (when you go to idle?).

 

Thanks, 

 

ET

 

N40HA2.jpg

 

ET,

 

We are down in Bisbee AZ if you ever need some dual instruction.  We have been flying CT's for years

[ibjet]

Wow, thanks for all the great feed back! I learned a lot from you folks!

 

Wanted to chip in a bit:

My concern about going to idle in the pattern: When you shut down to idle, you are creating a nice little refrigerator in your intake manifold. A cold intake does not atomize fuel well. Lukily, Rotax was smart enough to minimize that problem by going to very short manifolds with dual carbs (Volkswagen learned that lesson before them). Anyway, that is my concern, not having near frozen manifolds when I need a little quick power. So, I think I will favor coming in with some power, using a bit flatter approach than some others.  

 

And, I just had to clarify the forward stick issue: If you are on short final and you hit a warm air pocket/updraft/gust of wind and get "knocked up" (pun intended) a good solution is to "dump the air" with a quick jab of the stick or yoke. I learned that from an instructor. I have no idea if it is common practice, but I perfected it with my C150, then M20C. I discussed it with the gentleman who ferried my CT to me from Tulsa and he suggested just adding a little power. I think both ways work if you are decisive.

 

Anyway, again I thank you guys for the great inputs. I will definately try to learn different landing parameters, but for now, calm days, 15 degrees flaps, and about 54 kts with a little power, cut to idle at 3' and gently flare.

 

Happy Skies to you . . .

[Roger Lee]

"When you shut down to idle, you are creating a nice little refrigerator in your intake manifold. A cold intake does not atomize fuel well."

 

This isn't a concern.

[Tom Baker]

And, I just had to clarify the forward stick issue: If you are on short final and you hit a warm air pocket/updraft/gust of wind and get "knocked up" (pun intended) a good solution is to "dump the air" with a quick jab of the stick or yoke. I learned that from an instructor. I have no idea if it is common practice, but I perfected it with my C150, then M20C. I discussed it with the gentleman who ferried my CT to me from Tulsa and he suggested just adding a little power. I think both ways work if you are decisive.

 

What you are describing now is different than ballooning during the landing, like you mentioned in your first post. My comment was that when the stick starts back on a traditional landing, it should not move back forward until the airplane has slowed to a stop. "Punching the stick forward" on landing is what will eventually give mechanics like me some more work. You may get away with it for a while, but it will jump up and bite you at some point.

[Tom Baker]

Oh, I am with Roger on the fact that the Rotax will not stumble when adding power when cold. It is a different animal than the old Lycoming and Continental engine you are used to. The only thing you have to worry about is oil temp on extended glides at idle in cold weather. Your oil temp can drop below the 122° F lower limit causing a warning alarm to go off.

[ibjet]

Thanks again gentlemen!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[CT4ME]

Also, forward pressure on stick can lead to Wheel-barrowing, which is not good and scarey.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wheel-barrowing 

https://youtu.be/USkb9y10twc?t=5m19s