Engine failure today and forced landing.

[Doug G.]

1 hour ago, Roger Lee said:

Andy,

 

The only reason to use it then is because the carbs are empty. You need fuel NOW. If the carbs were full then no choke,

Opening the choke and throttle is the fastest way to fill fuel lines and carbs. More fuel flow to the problem area.

Roger, you have explained why throttle and choke together doesn't work. Now you are recommending it in an emergency??

Do the float bowls fill faster because of the carbs, or do they fill once there is fuel to them?

And, it seems that if this is the process it should go to shutting off the choke and continuing to crank.

[Roger Lee]

The choke is only shut out at 3500+ rpm. below that it is still functional.

 

[IrishAl]

The float bowls fill up under gravity only, and the goal here is to speed up this process.

By opening the throttle fully, the low pressure at the venturi maximizes the low pressure in the float bowl, and this low pressure 'sucks' the fuel in.

By closing the choke, which is upstream of the venturi, you are further decreasing the air pressure in the carburettor and in the float bowl, thereby increasing the 'suck' effect.

I would add one caveat to Roger's advice.  

More often than not, a hot engine will refuse to fire with the choke closed, and it's possible that you could end up cranking away even though there's plenty of fuel in the carbs; thus, I would be inclined to open the  choke every few seconds during cranking in the hope of hearing her fire up. 

 

 

[Tom Baker]

29 minutes ago, IrishAl said:

The float bowls fill up under gravity only, and the goal here is to speed up this process.

By closing the choke, which is upstream of the venturi, you are further decreasing the air pressure in the carburettor and in the float bowl, thereby increasing the 'suck' effect.

. 

 

 

I agree that you have to fill up the float bowls. but it can be under pressure by the fuel pump.

The Bing carburetors don't have a choke as you described, they have a fuel enrichment circuit.

Throttle position and the enrichment circuit will have little to do with getting the engine started again. The reason the engine quits is because there is no more fuel in the float bowls. To get fuel back to the float bowls you need to get fuel positioned over the pick up tube in at least one tank, and getting flowing to the carbs by cranking the engine. Only after you get some fuel back in the float bowls will the engine start. If the engine is warm it will likely start with any throttle position. When I have restarted an engine in flight I have always started at idle, then advanced the throttle.

[Roger Lee]

It starts easily in flight with no choke at idle when you have fuel in the lines, fuel in the pump and fuel in the carb bowls. You want to expedite that process when everything is empty. You need the fastest way to bring fuel through all these components and into the cylinder.

 

So you're convinced drain all the fuel from the wings next  wing pull, blow all the fuel from the hose lines, pump and dump the fuel from the bowls. After you get the 5 gals. of fuel back in on one tank go out and try to start at idle. Good luck. It will eventually start, but it's much faster with full choke and cracking the throttle about an inch or so. I have done this type of thing a few times with new engines.

 

Remember when the system is empty this is NOT A NORMAL start.

[Buckaroo]

I'm curious as an old ex instructor how do you instructors teach turns around a point and fuel management to students? 

For my own knowledge if I'm circling steep turns around an 8 point Trophy Elk or taking pictures of my house how long will say 10 gallons of fuel take to flow down stream to the low wing in coordinated flight? What techniques do you teach your students about fuel and steep turns?

Thanks 

Dave

 

 

[Ed Cesnalis]

7 minutes ago, Buckaroo said:

I'm curious as an old ex instructor how do you instructors teach turns around a point and fuel management to students? 

For my own knowledge if I'm circling steep turns around an 8 point Trophy Elk or taking pictures of my house how long will say 10 gallons of fuel take to flow down stream to the low wing in coordinated flight? What techniques do you teach your students about fuel and steep turns?

Thanks 

Dave

 

 

The fuel doesn't flow downstream in a steep turn if you are coordinated.  Same reason you don't have to fight falling against the door in a steep turn.  Fuel management in a CT is dependant on understanding that the fuel will follow the ball even if it is uphill.

Your slip/skid ball reacts to the sum of all forces not just gravity.  You can put the ball out of the cage with rudder deflection while the wings are level.  The ball and the fuel will head for the trailing wing just even when level (or uphill).

[CT4ME]

The old Bob Hoover routine with him pouring a glass of tea while doing a barrel roll says it all.

 

[Buckaroo]

34 minutes ago, CT4ME said:

The old Bob Hoover routine with him pouring a glass of tea while doing a barrel roll says it all.

 

Great illustration! The problem is who's 100% coordinated in a Ct? 

In the real world how do you teach folks turns around a point in the CT? What points do you cover first? 

[Ed Cesnalis]

1 hour ago, Buckaroo said:

Great illustration! The problem is who's 100% coordinated in a Ct? 

In the real world how do you teach folks turns around a point in the CT? What points do you cover first? 

1. Learn where the ball is when coordinated (as in right side of the cage)
2. Do turns around point while maintaining the confirmed ball position (as in the right side of the cage)

It is more difficult to remain coordinated in a CT, you probably always have to reference the ball. It does become second nature so there is no reason not to be proficient both for efficient flying and effective fuel management.

[Tom Baker]

You teach turns around a point the same in a CT as you do any other airplane.  I teach both left and right hand turns, and that helps keep things balanced out.

[Buckaroo]

I think I'll be a better pilot through all of this!??

[FlyingMonkey]

11 hours ago, Buckaroo said:

Great illustration! The problem is who's 100% coordinated in a Ct? 

In the real world how do you teach folks turns around a point in the CT? What points do you cover first? 

You don't have to be 100% coordinated all the time, but if you are doing long, steep turns as you are discussing, and work to be as coordinated as you can, you will be close enough that the amount of fuel transfer or differential tank flow will be minimal.  If you had 20 gallons split evenly in the tanks I bet you could circle for a couple of hours and never have a problem.

You don't have to get paranoid about the ball, just keep an eye on it and adjust as required to keep your airplane "reasonably" coordinated.  You don't have to overthink this, it's really not a problem if you keep your fuel even between tanks and more than 3-5 gallons or so per side.  Do your steep turns, and every 10-20 minutes or so level out and check your tank levels.  It might also help if you periodically change the direction of your turns.

[FlyingMonkey]

9 hours ago, JohnnyBlackCT said:

I have owned three airplanes and am now renting. I always take off with full fuel unless I need less due to weight limitations. It's something that was drilled into me many years ago and I adhere to these many years later. I never do intersection takeoffs either. 

I understand why you say this and the principle is certainly sound, but for me full fuel is not a great personal minimum in the CT for a couple of reasons:

1) The CT has really, *really* long legs, and tankering fuel is inefficient.  I don't need 7 hours worth of fuel to travel a half hour each way to a pancake breakfast.  If it's summer and the DA is high, that extra fuel is going to cost me a lot in performance.  Fuel economy, cruise speed, and most importantly climb rate will all suffer for the extra fuel.  

If you are flying a couple hours over sparsely populated areas with few refueling opportunities, then by all means top off those tanks.  In my area you can't throw a rock without hitting an airport, so the extra fuel makes little sense for local flights.

2) The CT has great load carrying capabilities, but it's still an LSA.  That means weight limitations.  The older CTs are blessed with high useful load, and mine is at 575lb as of a recent latest W&B.  The newer airplanes are more limited, with useful loads under 500lb.  You *always* have to make choices about how & where to carry that weight.  

Unless you are larger than the average bear, if you are flying solo you can probably top the tanks and have plenty left over for "stuff".  But as previously mentioned, weight kills performance.  I'd rather fly my airplane at 1100lb and have 1000+fpm climb than at 1320lb and have 650fpm climb.

Let's be honest, the tanks in the CTs are almost absurdly large.  I don't know of another LSA out there with 34 gallon tanks, and most are in the 20 gallon range.  Our fat tanks bring great capability when needed, but they don't really buy us much most of the time.  For flights under two hours, I don't really get more of a "warm fuzzy feeling" from 34 gallons than I do from 20-24 gallons.  Both quantities provide far more than is needed for the flight and give plenty of reserve range, unless flying over very hostile terrain or open water.

I'm not saying you are wrong Johnny, just that I take a different approach.

[Buckaroo]

Those are great points MrFlyingMonkey!?

[Ed Cesnalis]

3 hours ago, FlyingMonkey said:

You don't have to be 100% coordinated all the time, but if you are doing long, steep turns as you are discussing, and work to be as coordinated as you can, you will be close enough that the amount of fuel transfer or differential tank flow will be minimal.  If you had 20 gallons split evenly in the tanks I bet you could circle for a couple of hours and never have a problem.

You don't have to get paranoid about the ball, just keep an eye on it and adjust as required to keep your airplane "reasonably" coordinated.  You don't have to overthink this, it's really not a problem if you keep your fuel even between tanks and more than 3-5 gallons or so per side.  Do your steep turns, and every 10-20 minutes or so level out and check your tank levels.  It might also help if you periodically change the direction of your turns.

You can reference your tubes while you maneuver before you relocate your fuel.  You don't have to level your wings to check. You can check during the steep turns as long as you center your calibrated ball.

Reversing your direction to 'help' assumes you make a mirrored error on the other side the corrects the first.  This method would work for those that don't use the rudder on both sides or over use it on both sides.

 

[FlyingMonkey]

1 hour ago, Ed Cesnalis said:

You can reference your tubes while you maneuver before you relocate your fuel.  You don't have to level your wings to check. You can check during the steep turns as long as you center your calibrated ball.

Reversing your direction to 'help' assumes you make a mirrored error on the other side the corrects the first.  This method would work for those that don't use the rudder on both sides or over use it on both sides.

 

Agreed.  I was just thinking if it were me and I was concerned about the calibration of the ball or my ability to keep everything dead-nuts coordinated in a turn, I'd level to make sure while reading the tubes.

Everything you wrote is spot on to my way of thinking.

[Buckaroo]

I would now conclude that running out of fuel in one of two gravity fed fuel tanks is an in Flight emergency in the CT! 

Fuel transfer and tank balance is the responsibility of the pilot and should be part of flight operations as important or maybe more important than engine management, proper handling of flight controls and the ability to land the airplane! 

Fuel transfer is conducted by the proper use of the rudders! Push the ball in the turn coordinator towards the tank that needs fuel to balance with the fuller tank! While in level flight say like during a cross country adjustments can be done with 1/2 to 1 ball width out of center. 

***Makes me scratch my head why this type of information isn't prominently displayed in the Operations book!?

[Roger Lee]

Many years ago about 2008 it was on the FD USA website about why fuel drains from one tank faster than the other and what happens when a tank runs dry. When they upgraded their website it was gone.

[Buckaroo]

Today I went flying with about 25 gallons of fuel. Did some touch and goes the decided to fly over to White Sulpher Springs which is over a pass and all trees. 

About 1/3 way my right tank tube was 3/4 or so. The left was higher so I pushed the ball right one ball and in the turbulence saw even less fuel in the tube. Chickening out I turned very coordinated 180 and went back to my airport. 

Now I'm lacking confidence the fuel transfer technique will work. I invisioned running dry again. How can I overcome this worry? Should I know that pushing the ball right will immediately start filling the low tank? Is it as simple and guaranteed as that and how long does it take to see an improvement in the low site glass with one ball out?

 

 

[WmInce]

29 minutes ago, Buckaroo said:

About 1/3 way my right tank tube was 3/4 or so. The left was higher so I pushed the ball right one ball and in the turbulence saw even less fuel in the tube.

Now I'm lacking confidence the fuel transfer technique will work. I invisioned running dry again. How can I overcome this worry? Should I know that pushing the ball right will immediately start filling the low tank? Is it as simple and guaranteed as that and how long does it take to see an improvement in the low site glass with one ball out?

The reason the 3/4 indicated even less fuel is because the fuel was drawn away from the right sight tube and outboard (and probably unported the right fuel outlet). No sweat, as you were still feeding the engine from the left tank (visibly, with a full left sight tube).

I gave you a tip before on my technique for balancing. I will run it by you once again.

Balance for 10 full minutes, then recheck the sight tube levels. Had you done that, I bet you would have seen more fuel in that right sight tube, after returning to normal trimmed flight.

Again, remember this, "if your sight tube sees fuel, so can your engine." In your scenario, your left tube was supplying engine needs just fine.

[Ed Cesnalis]

5 hours ago, Buckaroo said:

I would now conclude that running out of fuel in one of two gravity fed fuel tanks is an in Flight emergency in the CT! 

Fuel transfer and tank balance is the responsibility of the pilot and should be part of flight operations as important or maybe more important than engine management, proper handling of flight controls and the ability to land the airplane! 

Fuel transfer is conducted by the proper use of the rudders! Push the ball in the turn coordinator towards the tank that needs fuel to balance with the fuller tank! While in level flight say like during a cross country adjustments can be done with 1/2 to 1 ball width out of center. 

***Makes me scratch my head why this type of information isn't prominently displayed in the Operations book!?

Ball out of center only works if calibrated.  You can check your ball calibration in flight by using your rudder and watching your sight tubes.  The chances of it the center being the point where your nose is in the relative wind are not very high.

I have run 1 tank dry, many times.  Its not an emergency. Position your rudder so that the remaining fuel is visible. As long as you can see that fuel so can your engine.

I did once get so low that  the option of landing on a road began to look necesarry.  By keeping my rudder positioned where I could see the remiaining fuel (at this point 1 wing is dry) I was able to obvserve my reserve diminishing.  With that view I could see once past my last road option that I could still make the runway.  This configuration allowed me to get into the last gallon which is not a possibility with any other system.

Even if you only fly with full tanks you still need to know how to manage your fuel when and if it does get low.

Note:  CTSW with enough fuel, sprays fuel out of the vent on the trailing wing in sloppy turns.

[Tom Baker]

The same process that you use to transfer fuel from one tank to the other, is the same action that moves fuel outboard in the tank you are transferring to. By moving the ball you are moving the fuel. If you are trying to transfer from the left to the right all the fuel must move to the right. This includes the fuel in the right fuel tank. That is why the sight tube for the right tank showed that you had less fuel, because you move the fuel in the right tank to the right which is outboard and away from the sight tube.

[Ed Cesnalis]

1 hour ago, Buckaroo said:

About 1/3 way my right tank tube was 3/4 or so. The left was higher so I pushed the ball right one ball and in the turbulence saw even less fuel in the tube. Chickening out I turned very coordinated 180 and went back to my airport. 

 

 

 

This is normal.  Turbulence disturbs the level and the level is only correct when your calibrated ball is centered.

To find the correct level as well as where your nose is in the relative wind, focus on one wing at a time.  Position the rudder so that the fuel in the sight tube will go up if given rudder travel in one direction and the fuel will go down if you move the rudder the other way.  Its best to find this middle with trim and then just look for left rudder = level up and right rudder = level down.  Now check the other wing and it should do the opposite.  When you have found this position your sight tubes are correct and your nose is in the wind.  Note your ball, is it in the center?  Until your binacle moves again this is your  new 'middle'.

 

[Buckaroo]

2 hours ago, WmInce said:

The reason the 3/4 indicated even less fuel is because the fuel was drawn away from the right sight tube and outboard (and probably unported the right fuel outlet). No sweat, as you were still feeding the engine from the left tank (visibly, with a full left sight tube).

I gave you a tip before on my technique for balancing. I will run it by you once again.

Balance for 10 full minutes, then recheck the sight tube levels. Had you done that, I bet you would have seen more fuel in that right sight tube, after returning to normal trimmed flight.

Again, remember this, "if your sight tube sees fuel, so can your engine." In your scenario, your left tube was supplying engine needs just fine.

The day of my field landing I realize I forced the 8 or so gallons out of the remaining site tube causing fuel starvation. What move should I have done to turn the plane 180 degrees while keeping the site tube showing 8 gallons? I'm guessing a real nail biting coordinated turn!