airhound Posted January 21, 2011 Report Share Posted January 21, 2011 Dick, no doubt that sparbox, the thing we all come in contact with just entering and exiting the airplane, can be a hazard. Perhaps keep pillows or somekind of cushion that will stow on the turtledecks of LS aircraft or are thin enough to stow along side our legs ready to stick between our faces/heads and the box in the event of a very rough landing at the last moment when hands are available to protect ourselves. Plus, they lessen room available to stick stuff that would otherwise rattle around the cockpit on impact. Sorry, just stretching for a pratical suggestion to an obvious potential hazard already pointed out. Or, I guess retrofitting, if possible, with harness airbags, might be an option. Not sure they are designed to protect noggins though....And of course for southwestern folks there's always air conditioned helmets to consider... doug Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CT2kflyer Posted January 22, 2011 Report Share Posted January 22, 2011 I guess my two cents worth is as valuable as any other, so.............. For my money pulling the chute depends.... on if I have the plane under control, or if the plane is out of control. I hate to say it, but I've had my engine quit on me at about 2,600 feet, but it was flying and flyable. Without going into the gory details, I successfully had several re-starts before things settled down to the point where I could reach an airfield.......... no chute necessary. As a matter of fact, I didn't even think about using the chute, probably because I had altitude, airspeed and a fair amount of flatland below me within a half-mile or so. Frankly, I was busy setting up for best-glide and circling to find the best landing site, while simultaneously trying to restart the engine. In the end, I walked away from an undamaged aircraft so it all turned out for the best....... and I learned a lot. I learned I fixate real good. I've thought a great deal about what happened, and I've come to the conclusion that if for some strange reason my plane goes out of control........ the chute is a very viable option. Who knows, my aileron or flap might be gone, or the tail is gone (like on that Lambada in Texas).......... frankly, I probably won't know and trouble shooting when your aircraft is in a uncontrolled situation seems pound-foolish, penny-wise. Sure, I can put the stick to neutral and stomp on the opposite rudder, pull off the throttle...... but it's not as if I can get out and take a good look-see. For my money, out of control at 1,000 feet is too low. Out of control at 2,000 feet .. maybe I'll give fixing the situation a quick try, but I'm pulling that handle at some point above 1,000 feet. That's why I have insurance........ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
airhound Posted January 22, 2011 Report Share Posted January 22, 2011 CT2k What ended up being the cause of the engine trouble? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nathan Posted February 23, 2011 Report Share Posted February 23, 2011 So I had a few questions and input: Once the chute is deployed, let’s say the plane was set down like a baby in a crib, is the aircraft considered totaled? Is the damage that the plane sustains from the chute deployment major? I guess I was wondering if it is “ put it down on a road and risk some landing gear damage” or “pull the chute no matter what, if my engine is out and I am nowhere near a landing strip.” I would like to be able to not chance hitting a tree or a pole and ending my life cause I wanted to save damage to the aircraft. Input is welcome. As far as passenger training. If you have auto pilot linked to the gps, i would train my passengers to (That is if I went unconscious) set auto pilot for the nearest airport and when you are near it, cut the engine and pull the chute. N8 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
S3flyer Posted February 23, 2011 Report Share Posted February 23, 2011 Hi Nathan, The aircraft belongs to the insurance company once the fan stops. Your job is to keep the shiny side up and ensure you and you're pax can retell the engine-out story to friends and family. Pull the chute if that gives you and your pax the best chances. The airplane is probably totaled with a deployment but that should never enter your decision making. Your strategy for an incapacitated pilot sounds reasonable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FastEddieB Posted February 23, 2011 Report Share Posted February 23, 2011 Is the damage that the plane sustains from the chute deployment major? I guess I was wondering if it is “ put it down on a road and risk some landing gear damage” or “pull the chute no matter what, if my engine is out and I am nowhere near a landing strip.” I know that with the Cirrus, a 'chute deployment is assumed to be a total loss - the gear is designed to fail up into the fuselage, the seats absorb impact and need to be replaced, plus the not-insignificant cost of reinstalling the chute. And yet, there are a handful of Cirrus' flying today after chute pulls - IOW repair WAS an option. As you implied, however, when contemplating chute vs. field, potential damage should have ZERO effect on your decision - 100% weight should be given to survivability. My Sky Arrow has no chute, and I had an incident last Thurs where I would have been seriously considering a chute pull if I had had one and if the engine hadn't recovered - I'll post a PIREP on that soon! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nathan Posted February 23, 2011 Report Share Posted February 23, 2011 Thank you all for your input, I really like the feeling of having the back up there. I wish they would put them in all GA. I have a fanny pack parachute that I bring along when I am in GA just in case. I do think I would pay the extra doe to have one installed in my next plane if there is not one. N8 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CT4ME Posted February 23, 2011 Report Share Posted February 23, 2011 By itself, Chute deployment causes major "damage" to the plane... plus there likely will be impact damage to the gear and fuselage and serious stress everywhere. The cables/cords that attach the parachute run through channels under the skin of the CT. The skin over these channels rip open... one on each side goes all the way from the chute area, up to the cowling. Just pulling the chute while setting on the tarmac would probably cost $10K to fix, with the re-pack, rocket, body work and painting. As said here already.... damage and embarrassment are the last things you want to consider during an emergency... tim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Runtoeat Posted February 24, 2011 Report Share Posted February 24, 2011 The decision whether or not to pull one's chute may not be totally reliant on whether or not the pilot has control of the aircraft and is set up in a "best rate" glide and has what appears to be a section of "hospitable" terrain to get to. Three accidents I know about, two with CT's and one with a Tecnam, indicate to me that just having a flat spot to land on isn't a guarantee that all will go as planned on touch down. The two CT's were brought down on what appeared to be flat, unimproved ground and both flipped over. This resulted in snapped off vertical stabilizers, folded up landing gear that heavily damaged the under fuselage, torn off engine cowlings, folded up propellors, "tweaked" wings and torn out windshields. As far as I can tell, all on board both CT's survived with minor injuries. I do not know if these aircraft were "totalled" but suspect they were. In regards to the Tecnam, this plane was dead sticked into a soybean field from a few hundred feet of altitude after experiencing an engine failure on takeoff. On touchdown, the plants in the field "grabbed" the main landing gear, folding it up into the fuselage and nosing the plane into the ground. The main gear continued to fold up and travel thru the fuselage, continuing into the passenger compartment where it punctured the upper torso of the pilot, killing him. As a low hour pilot, I have been practicing "making" certain spots on a runway during power off landings, as if I was coming in without power and trying to hit a spot on the ground. This practice was driven by the thought that I would be able to set my plane down and not rely on my chute, given enough ground that is without power lines, fences or ditches. After seeing the results of the above accidents, if I have the time and have my wits (no gurantees on the 2nd item) I now will be a lot more selective about the terrain I'm going to set down on or in. After seeing the damage done on the planes that have attempted to set down on flat land, I am no longer predisposed to rule out pulling the chute and now give this more thought. It appears that doing so may result in less damage than trying to land without the chute. Perhaps what might help all of us would be to be able to find some reports of CT's where the chute was pulled, if there are any? The fact that perhaps no "pulled chute" incidents may be found probably speaks for itself. Pilots may have mentally blocked themselves from actually going thru with it even before they are faced with the "real deal" because they only see the top of the plane ripped off if they pull the chute. And too, most pilots probably say "hey, I'll just slow the plane down and mush it into the terrain". I have seen the results where the chute was not pulled and really don't think that I'll be damaging my plane any more by pulling the chute as I will if I mis-judge the terrain or if I don't get the plane slowed down as much as planned. Presently, the picture in my mind of the pillars surfaces, windshield and top of my plane pulled off as a result of pulling the chute doesn't seem as bad as the my mental pictures of the crumpled CT's that landed without the chute. Sorry for rambling on here. Any reports of CT's where the chutes were pulled will be greatly appreciated. How about starting with some input from Flight Design giving us "probable" repairs required to our CT's if the chute is pulled? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johngpilot Posted February 25, 2011 Report Share Posted February 25, 2011 The decision whether or not to pull one's chute may not be totally reliant on whether or not the pilot has control of the aircraft and is set up in a "best rate" glide and has what appears to be a section of "hospitable" terrain to get to. Three accidents I know about, two with CT's and one with a Jabiru, indicate to me that just having a flat spot to land on isn't a guarantee that all will go as planned on touch down. The two CT's were brought down on what appeared to be flat, unimproved ground and both flipped over. This resulted in snapped off vertical stabilizers, folded up landing gear that heavily damaged the under fuselage, torn off engine cowlings, folded up propellors, "tweaked" wings and torn out windshields. As far as I can tell, all on board both CT's survived with minor injuries. I do not know if these aircraft were "totalled" but suspect they were. In regards to the Jabiru, this plane was dead sticked into a soybean field from a few hundred feet of altitude after experiencing an engine failure on takeoff. On touchdown, the plants in the field "grabbed" the main landing gear, folding it up into the fuselage and nosing the plane into the ground. The main gear continued to fold up and travel thru the fuselage, continuing into the passenger compartment where it punctured the upper torso of the pilot, killing him. As a low hour pilot, I have been practicing "making" certain spots on a runway during power off landings, as if I was coming in without power and trying to hit a spot on the ground. This practice was driven by the thought that I would be able to set my plane down and not rely on my chute, given enough ground that is without power lines, fences or ditches. After seeing the results of the above accidents, if I have the time and have my wits (no gurantees on the 2nd item) I now will be a lot more selective about the terrain I'm going to set down on or in. After seeing the damage done on the planes that have attempted to set down on flat land, I am no longer predisposed to rule out pulling the chute and now give this more thought. It appears that doing so may result in less damage than trying to land without the chute. Perhaps what might help all of us would be to be able to find some reports of CT's where the chute was pulled, if there are any? The fact that perhaps no "pulled chute" incidents may be found probably speaks for itself. Pilots may have mentally blocked themselves from actually going thru with it even before they are faced with the "real deal" because they only see the top of the plane ripped off if they pull the chute. And too, most pilots probably say "hey, I'll just slow the plane down and mush it into the terrain". I have seen the results where the chute was not pulled and really don't think that I'll be damaging my plane any more by pulling the chute as I will if I mis-judge the terrain or if I don't get the plane slowed down as much as planned. Presently, the picture in my mind of the pillars surfaces, windshield and top of my plane pulled off as a result of pulling the chute doesn't seem as bad as the my mental pictures of the crumpled CT's that landed without the chute. Sorry for rambling on here. Any reports of CT's where the chutes were pulled will be greatly appreciated. How about starting with some input from Flight Design giving us "probable" repairs required to our CT's if the chute is pulled? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johngpilot Posted February 25, 2011 Report Share Posted February 25, 2011 I did a google search to BRSAerospace and the first listing on lives saved is a CTsw in Sweden- http://www.brsaerospace.com/lives_saved.aspx. I know of one in Morocco - another CTsw pulled at 90 Meters with no injury and a 3rd was on a CTsw during a test flight many years ago and not one of these was caused by anything other than Pilot error. I worked for BRS for 5 years and the cost of repairs were very hard to predict. If you go in salt water - complete total... if you are pulled over a cliff with a high wind or dragged thru a barb wire fence different levels, land on a fence post or in a Wal Mart it all varies, but you get the picture. It really depends upon what you hit, how fast the wind is blowing and a bit of a luck of the draw in nearly all the cases the planes are rebuild-able. but I do know that if you hit a 8" pine tree at cruise in the fog there is no rebuild required. IF you can FLY the Plane FLY It. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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