Low-hour CTLS/CTLSi wanted

[Hambone]

I'm in the market for a no-damage, low-hour CTLS/CTLSi. Preferably in the US Southwest, but willing to travel.

Thanks!

[Adam]

There are several listed for sale on Controller.  What's your budget look like?  I see a CTLSi at $140k (but its been sitting a while so perhaps could be had for a bit less).

https://www.controller.com/listings/aircraft/for-sale/list/category/433/light-sport-aircraft/manufacturer/flight-design

 

 

 

[Hambone]

Thanks, Adam!

I had limited my budget to $100K, but I'd go slightly higher for a late-model low-hour bargain.

I have been perusing the various aircraft-for-sale publications.

[Anticept]

Why does it have to be no-damage? It's not like a car where they can get away with half-assed repairs easily. In fact, I love snatching up damaged airplanes because you get a lot more bang for your buck!

[bmar]

I wouldn't want to buy a damaged plane either. I picked up a 2011 fully loaded CTLS for under 100k, no damage, and 155 hours on it. Deals are out there if you look long enough, and I love the CTLS so far. Great little plane 

[Anticept]

But *why* is a prior an issue? Even a repaired car is a great deal if you have a good eye.

Repaired aircraft are required to be repaired to equal or better than original, and due to the way aviation regulations work, they can't put on cheap Chinesium junk like some insurers in the automotive world try to do.

To me, it's just a waste of good money to assume damaged aircraft are bad aircraft. That money someone uses on their pride, or the assumption that it's somehow lower quality, could have been put towards investment or improvements.

Damage doesn't even affect airliner value.

As another point, an aircraft with a written damage history can likely be trusted more to have been handled properly. I've seen aircraft where damage is obvious (to my eye), yet history shows clean. Not documenting difficult to see repairs is one thing, but undocumented and poorly repaired aircraft are the ones that *really* scare me. And there are plenty of both floating around out there posing as "clean".

Then again... as long as people keep thinking this way, I can get projects on the cheap

[Anticept]

Edit: poster deleted their post that this is in response to.

You will tell that in a test flight immediately and walk away from the deal.

I've flown 6 aircraft with minor to major damage in their history in the past 5 years. It's the quality of repairs, not that they are repaired, that matters.

That said, damage isn't always the cause of aircraft flying funny. It's easy to blame the damage but it's probably garbage maintenance or a half assed repair.

[sandpiper]

I would think that composite repairs will add weight. The more extensive the repair, the more weight is likely added. I have no experience to back this up. Comments Corey?

[Anticept]

Very little is added. So little that unless the repair is super complex, a W&B change is not needed. Even then, there's a point where complexity would just warrant replacement of that section.

Most of the weight in our aircraft comes not from the composite, but from the metal. The engine is 190 pounds dry with just the engine block and carbs on it. That's already 1/3rd to 1/4th the weight right there.

The parachute is 35 pounds if I recall.

The full nose gear engine mount and T is decently heavy too. 30 pounds?

The rigging, steering, and tail mixer has got to be another 30 pounds, maybe more.

No idea how heavy the aileron and flap system is. There's a lot of tube steel and rods there too.

Landing gear is HEAVY for its size. The leg is probably the lightest part, individually 5-10 pounds, the wheel and tire are probably double that if using 600-6.

The only other part that matches the density of the landing gear is the main spar. That thing is a huge amount of the weight of the wings. The plywood ribs (it's some kind of wood) will add up too.

if you stripped a fuselage completely, leaving only the shell (remove windows too), I am pretty certain you could pick it up. Might be a little bit heavy, but I think it could be done.

Point being: It's insignificant.

edit: the weight of the fabric for most field repairs used on CTs is 6 oz per square yard. With epoxy at a good ratio of around 60:40 fabric to resin by weight, you're less than 10 oz.

On top of that, repairs generally mean cutting out most of the damage and laying replacement fabric, with an overlap of approximately 1-2 inches at the edge with undamaged area. So imagine how incredibly huge skin damage would have to be to add just a pound of weight.

[Runtoeat]

Corey, you surely understand that you are looking at this from a unique angle compared to most others.  You have the knowledge and experience to assess a damaged composite structure and the ability (and facility) to fix this.  Very few people have this ability.  Case in point is Solarguy in Arizona who is on our forum.  He had a repair expert fly in from Germany to fix the recently crashed CT.  He did this for two reasons, to get the CT fixed by an expert and to learn how to repair composite so he can do this in the future himself.  For those who are like me, composite repair is a mysterious procedure and, although I would like to be certified to do it, I don't have the time to take this task on.  I will avoid anything that even hints that a repair has been made because I don't have an expert close by to advise me of the quality of a repair.  I would really like to watch you do a repair to learn more about this.  You make it sound simple but I'm sure there's much more to it in order that it is done correctly.

[Tom Baker]

11 hours ago, JohnnyBlackCT said:

I've flown damaged and repaired airplanes that fly sideways.  It depends on what the damages were.

The key is properly repaired. If it is flying sideways I wouldn't consider it as being properly repaired.

[Tom Baker]

9 hours ago, Anticept said:

Very little is added. So little that unless the repair is super complex, a W&B change is not needed. Even then, there's a point where complexity would just warrant replacement of that section.

Most of the weight in our aircraft comes not from the composite, but from the metal. The engine is 190 pounds dry with just the engine block and carbs on it. That's already 1/3rd to 1/4th the weight right there.

The parachute is 35 pounds if I recall.

The full nose gear engine mount and T is decently heavy too. 30 pounds?

The rigging, steering, and tail mixer has got to be another 30 pounds, maybe more.

No idea how heavy the aileron and flap system is. There's a lot of tube steel and rods there too.

Landing gear is HEAVY for its size. The leg is probably the lightest part, individually 5-10 pounds, the wheel and tire are probably double that if using 600-6.

The only other part that matches the density of the landing gear is the main spar. That thing is a huge amount of the weight of the wings. The plywood ribs (it's some kind of wood) will add up too.

if you stripped a fuselage completely, leaving only the shell (remove windows too), I am pretty certain you could pick it up. Might be a little bit heavy, but I think it could be done.

Point being: it's not like metal repairs. It's insignificant.

edit: the weight of the fabric for most field repairs used on CTs is 6 oz per square yard. With epoxy at a good ratio of around 60:40 fabric to resin by weight, you're less than 10 oz.

On top of that, repairs generally mean cutting out most of the damage and laying replacement fabric, with an overlap of approximately 1-2 inches at the edge with undamaged area. So imagine how incredibly huge skin damage would have to be to add just a pound of weight.

Paint is one thing you left off that adds considerable weight. I am with Corey on this. A composite repair in itself will not add much weight. There is very little extra material that is added over what is removed. It is not just slapping some added material on the damaged area.

[Anticept]

Paint is definately extremely heavy. There's probably a few gallons of it on the plane.

Runtoeat: that's why you hire an expert to prebuy. Never buy a used airplane, damaged or not, without a prebuy, or at least a decent warranty (from someone with the assets and experience to execute the warranty terms).

I understand and agree that I have a different perspective. That's what makes my perspective valuable; I'm informing you that you CAN trust repaired aircraft... if you get an expert! A damaged airplane is not automatically defective or any less of an airplane than an undamaged one, and again: you can hire someone who *does* have these skills to help you.

If a damage airplane sells for 10k lower on the hundred thousand than an undamaged one, you would have to go through 10 damaged ones before you waste that 10k in typical prebuys and misc expenses. You can lower your risk before even going to see it by determining the age of the repair (older is usually better), who repaired it, (some shadetree or someone with reputation?), pictures, what instructions were followed, etc.

Ultimately this is all personal preference, but I am trying to change the misconception a bit. Loss aversion is a very real effect, but you have so many tools available to keep your risk low and your gains high. The risk of loss is mostly based on horror stories and I can bet just about every one of them was in doing so without a prebuy.

You're gonna end up paying 5-10% of the airplane value out anyways in the first year or two just to get the old owner out of the plane. Basically what that means, is you will be removing customizations they made and installing your own, as well as getting the maintenance to your own level of snuff. Even in factory new airplanes, you end up stacking up a decent warranty bill trying to straighten out mistakes. That's just how it is. Difference is in factory new though, you pay for it through the "new" sticker price!

As a personal piece of advice as well: if you have a budget to buy an airplane, drop it by 10% or 10,000, whichever is higher. You'll need it.

[Hambone]

Interesting discussion!

I've seen quite a few CTLS/CTSWs popping up for sale recently.

On ‎8‎/‎31‎/‎2017 at 4:14 PM, bmar said:

I wouldn't want to buy a damaged plane either. I picked up a 2011 fully loaded CTLS for under 100k, no damage, and 155 hours on it. Deals are out there if you look long enough, and I love the CTLS so far. Great little plane 

Now THAT'S the kind of deal I'm looking for!

[Roger Lee]

A CTLS in Oregon by Darryl Swenson. Should be on Barnstormers.

[Anticept]

Go for it!

Just keep a little cash on the side like I had recommended.

[Hambone]

2 hours ago, Roger Lee said:

A CTLS in Oregon by Darryl Swenson. Should be on Barnstormers.

That's a nice one!

Darryl is flying it down to Page next month if he doesn't sell it by then.

[Duane Jefts]

Said he would be in page again and it is a very nice plane. I would highly recommend it.

[Hambone]

Tempting!

Awaiting hangar availability... and a new tax year...

[Roger Lee]

There should be hangars at Ryan to rent.

[Hambone]

Thanks, Roger. I'll be sure to check out Ryan. I haven't been out there yet.

I'd prefer to be at Tucson International because of the distance. That's quite a trek from Vail to Ryan!

[Roger Lee]

I live in Rita Ranch right next to you. It takes me 35 min. to go to Ryan. When not under construction you take I-10 to Ajo and Ajo all the way out to Ryan. Very few traffic lights and speeds are fairly fast. Right now I just take Valencia until some of the construction gets done. For me and others TIA is too restrictive. taxi time is too long at TIA and you're always flying out of class "C".

[Hambone]

Good points. 35 minutes isn't bad, would probably be 40 minutes for me from Vail. I drove out to Benson last weekend, and that took about 40 minutes.

Too bad we don't have a small strip in the Vail/Rita Ranch area!

[frfly172]

Noticed that the 2012 ctls in controller,the owner is entertaining trades,and will do financing. Anyone know the history of the airplane?

[David Ober]

I inquired about the 2012 several months ago.  The owner sent me a pdf of the logs if you want them.  It has been listed for awhile. It weights over 850 lbs because he had air conditioning installed. It has also had repairs done due to a "hard landing".  The details of the repairs are listed in the logs.