24-8003-ms Posted November 21, 2017 Report Share Posted November 21, 2017 Our 912 ignition modules are tired. They need to be warmed up for first flight of the day, or have a battery boost. The prices are horrendous. Does anyone have any ideas on where the best deals are for these items? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anticept Posted November 21, 2017 Report Share Posted November 21, 2017 A battery boost? The modules are completely independent from the electrical system. If you have to jump start your airplane, it's a battery problem. The modules do not activate until a certain minimum RPM; if you can't reach that, they will not activate. If you spend a lot of time on the ground with all your electronics on, they will run down your battery. Use a ground charger between flights. It's a good idea to get a dual purpose charger and float charger combination device and just put it on anytime the airplane is not flying. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger Lee Posted November 21, 2017 Report Share Posted November 21, 2017 I agree with Corey. If just simply doing a jump start with another battery makes it work then replace the battery it isn't the modules. Modules tend to either work or not. The but part here is one module starting circuit can give out and the plane starts on the second one, but most people would never know until the second one gives out. If you use the original battery and place an ice pack around the modules and it starts right up then replace the modules. The price is the same everywhere. I have seen on Barnstormers used modules and you may find some at some of the service center or at South Mississippi Aviation from trashed engines. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
24-8003-ms Posted November 23, 2017 Author Report Share Posted November 23, 2017 Hi Roger and Corey - thanks for your replies - much appreciated. The aircraft has a near-new Odyssey battery that's kept on trickle when not in use. We'll do more tests before purchasing new modules. This problem has only started this year and we've never had a similar issue before, even as the old battery was nearing the end of its life. What we know does work is to place a hot towel over the modules during the walk-around. Once the modules are warm, it fires immediately. The alternative way to start is, as I mentioned, is to connect a boost battery. The engine spins well and fast even when the modules aren't firing up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anticept Posted November 23, 2017 Report Share Posted November 23, 2017 Make sure you buy the new modules with the yellow tag. They are a little cheaper, and running a wire will get you soft start. Assuming you don't already have these. Or ring up a salvage yard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dek Posted November 23, 2017 Report Share Posted November 23, 2017 There is a Company in Holland who can completely refurbish the 912 ignition modules. Contact: info@carmo.nl I had both units refurbished and they are guaranteed for 12 months. The cost in Euros was just short of €500 plus postage which is much cheaper than buying new units. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FlyingMonkey Posted November 23, 2017 Report Share Posted November 23, 2017 10 hours ago, Dek said: There is a Company in Holland who can completely refurbish the 912 ignition modules. Contact: info@carmo.nl I had both units refurbished and they are guaranteed for 12 months. The cost in Euros was just short of €500 plus postage which is much cheaper than buying new units. Wow, thanks for that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Runtoeat Posted November 23, 2017 Report Share Posted November 23, 2017 Dek, thanks for the info. When you got your modules back, is there obvious places where the module body has been cut apart then rejoined. Any pictures of a refurbished module? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cdarza Posted November 24, 2017 Report Share Posted November 24, 2017 What would they do to refurbish the unit ? I am not a mechanical / electrical genius so please, if possible, try to keep any answer simple. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dek Posted November 24, 2017 Report Share Posted November 24, 2017 Although I am not technically savvy my understanding is that Carmo actually dismantle the units and replace parts internally for what they claimed to be superior to the parts used by Rotax. There is evidence of the units having been opened and then resealed after repair. I used to have to use a hairdryer on the units for ten minutes before they would fire but now it is immediate. Carmo come highly recommended. If you need more info just email the company and they are happy to explain the process to anyone who understands the technicalities. Alternatively give them a call. Hope this helps. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Runtoeat Posted November 24, 2017 Report Share Posted November 24, 2017 Dek, thanks. This is the 2nd person who states that warming the module allows it to work. I've always thought that cooling the modules (i.e., Roger Lee's recommendation?) was the recommended way to see if the module was involved in a "no start"? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dek Posted November 24, 2017 Report Share Posted November 24, 2017 I wouldn’t dismiss the suggestion about cooling the modules as I can only talk about my experience but I was given the tip about warming them by a very experienced Rotax engineer/inspector and it always worked. When I spoke to Carmo they confirmed that if they responded to heat then that was a normal tell tale sign that the modules were breaking down. Whatever works. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anticept Posted November 25, 2017 Report Share Posted November 25, 2017 Wish I knew the part numbers of the electronics in them. It's probably the SCRs that are the weak point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tip Posted November 25, 2017 Report Share Posted November 25, 2017 You could start a great business if you were able to repair these modules. It looks like that they all go bad at some point. Three of us that fly together have all replaced them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Runtoeat Posted November 25, 2017 Report Share Posted November 25, 2017 Perhaps talking to those who repair the modules might reveal which components fail. It appears that there might be specific components which are the culprit(s). Regarding cold vs. hot, I recall early Ford ignition modules allowing a vehicle to start but then causing the engine to stop a few miles down the road. It was discovered the potting material expanded at a different rate than the electronics and connections/components were pulled apart. Application of cold to the modules restored start capability. Perhaps heat brings the components back to life and cold brings connections back together on the Rotax module? Hi Tip. Yes, I'm surprised someone isn't doing this in the U.S - at least none that we have heard about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WmInce Posted November 25, 2017 Report Share Posted November 25, 2017 4 hours ago, Tip said: You could start a great business if you were able to repair these modules. It looks like that they all go bad at some point. That's an excellent idea. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
24-8003-ms Posted November 25, 2017 Author Report Share Posted November 25, 2017 On 23/11/2017 at 10:20 AM, Anticept said: Make sure you buy the new modules with the yellow tag. They are a little cheaper, and running a wire will get you soft start. Assuming you don't already have these. Or ring up a salvage yard. Thanks - we’ve tracked some down and will purchase ... appreciate the advice Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
24-8003-ms Posted November 25, 2017 Author Report Share Posted November 25, 2017 On 21/11/2017 at 7:00 PM, Anticept said: A battery boost? The modules are completely independent from the electrical system. If you have to jump start your airplane, it's a battery problem. The modules do not activate until a certain minimum RPM; if you can't reach that, they will not activate. If you spend a lot of time on the ground with all your electronics on, they will run down your battery. Use a ground charger between flights. It's a good idea to get a dual purpose charger and float charger combination device and just put it on anytime the airplane is not flying. The purpose of the battery boost was to spin the engine a bit faster at startup. It seemed to work most of the time, but putting a hot towel over the modules definitely worked - engine always fires first spin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
24-8003-ms Posted November 26, 2017 Author Report Share Posted November 26, 2017 On 23/11/2017 at 4:07 PM, Dek said: There is a Company in Holland who can completely refurbish the 912 ignition modules. Contact: info@carmo.nl I had both units refurbished and they are guaranteed for 12 months. The cost in Euros was just short of €500 plus postage which is much cheaper than buying new units. Thanks - we’ll fire one of our existing units off for a refurb to work with the replacement, which should be better as it wires in for a soft start. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Baker Posted November 26, 2017 Report Share Posted November 26, 2017 2 hours ago, 24-8003-ms said: Thanks - we’ll fire one of our existing units off for a refurb to work with the replacement, which should be better as it wires in for a soft start. With Rotax modules both have to be soft start to use the soft start function. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anticept Posted November 26, 2017 Report Share Posted November 26, 2017 As tom said. If you don't use both yellowtag modules, you will still have one fire on advanced timing, completely defeating the retarded timing of the other. They will work fine with each other normally. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
24-8003-ms Posted November 27, 2017 Author Report Share Posted November 27, 2017 22 hours ago, Tom Baker said: With Rotax modules both have to be soft start to use the soft start function. Ok - didn't know that - thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
24-8003-ms Posted November 27, 2017 Author Report Share Posted November 27, 2017 21 hours ago, Anticept said: As tom said. If you don't use both yellowtag modules, you will still have one fire on advanced timing, completely defeating the retarded timing of the other. They will work fine with each other normally. Got it - thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Baker Posted November 27, 2017 Report Share Posted November 27, 2017 You can run a soft start module with a non soft start, but the soft start functionneeds to be disabled. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger Lee Posted November 27, 2017 Report Share Posted November 27, 2017 Rotax doesn't want and old module and a new module run together. It should be either or. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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