30° flaperon landings - can be fun - or not

[Ed Cesnalis]

@JLang said:

Some CT pilots find that control authority decreases with increased flaps.

Some CT pilots find the opposite.

 

The difference is a choice of energy source that you use to load your flaperons. 

A CTSW can run out of energy very rapidly and as Roger points out it results in bent gear  It happens with 30° of flaperons because that is an extremely dirty configuration, with 30° loss of energy can be rapid and problematic. Roger is a bit of a speed guy now and its true that extra energy protects from rapid and problematic energy loss but at a price.

Our options for loading our flaperons are:

1. Throttle
2. Pitch attitude

To benefit from your 30° flaperon approach and landing   you want to keep your flaperons loaded all the way to contact with the runway.

Conversely, to realize diminished control from  your 30° flaperon use just unload them (its easy to do).  When you unload them you loose the buoyant feeling and wings want to drop or the plane wants to stop flying or drift takes a lot of input to control.

To get a bad result just fly the approach similarly to an approach with 15° and there will be points in your approach / landing where the flaps unload.

With practice you can do any kind of approach you want and keep your flaperons loaded but until that becomes 2nd nature here is an approach/landing method that I generally use for consistency and ease. 

The idea is to load the flaps early by lowering the nose till drooped wing tips are level and trimming for that speed. Use the trim to maintain the speed all the way till roundout so that the flaperons remain loaded, don't hold pressure.  Approach with a closed throttle again so the flaperons remain loaded. 

Do not begin your round out high in order to conserve energy.

Combine your roundout with your flare (no need to bleed of speed with a closed throttle and 30° flaperon) 

Your wingtip is no longer level and and no longer keeping your flaperons loaded so move your stick to the aft stop as soon as you can without ballooning.  This will keep your flaperons loaded and your level of control high.

Advance the throttle a very small amount to soften that final settling for a while.  As your timing improves you won't need this much.

 

 

 

 

[WmInce]

1 hour ago, Ed Cesnalis said:

The difference is a choice of energy source that you use to load your flaperons. 

A CTSW can run out of energy very rapidly and as Roger points out it results in bent gear  It happens with 30° of flaperons because that is an extremely dirty configuration, with 30° loss of energy can be rapid and problematic. Roger is a bit of a speed guy now and its true that extra energy protects from rapid and problematic energy loss but at a price.

Our options for loading our flaperons are:

1. Throttle
2. Pitch attitude

To benefit from your 30° flaperon approach and landing   you want to keep your flaperons loaded all the way to contact with the runway.

Conversely, to realize diminished control from  your 30° flaperon use just unload them (its easy to do).  When you unload them you loose the buoyant feeling and wings want to drop or the plane wants to stop flying or drift takes a lot of input to control.

To get a bad result just fly the approach similarly to an approach with 15° and there will be points in your approach / landing where the flaps unload.

With practice you can do any kind of approach you want and keep your flaperons loaded but until that becomes 2nd nature here is an approach/landing method that I generally use for consistency and ease. 

The idea is to load the flaps early by lowering the nose till drooped wing tips are level and trimming for that speed. Use the trim to maintain the speed all the way till roundout so that the flaperons remain loaded, don't hold pressure.  Approach with a closed throttle again so the flaperons remain loaded. 

Do not begin your round out high in order to conserve energy.

Combine your roundout with your flare (no need to bleed of speed with a closed throttle and 30° flaperon) 

Your wingtip is no longer level and and no longer keeping your flaperons loaded so move your stick to the aft stop as soon as you can without ballooning.  This will keep your flaperons loaded and your level of control high.

Advance the throttle a very small amount to soften that final settling for a while.  As your timing improves you won't need this much.

Strictly pilot technique.

[Stacy]

Today I used 30 for the first time, with a passenger on board. I’ve landed many times with flaps at 30, by myself. 

Part of the reason I wanted to try it, was I thought with the xtra drag, I would be able to keep a little power in it and have more rudder authority. I made 3 landings, and was please with all 3.

The one thing I have not like about the CTSW, is the way it hangs in ground effect. Every plane I’ve owned or flew in the past, I’ve been able to kiss them on at speeds much higher than the stall speed. With the CTSW, I have a hard time getting the plane to stay on the ground with excess speed. 

[Tom Baker]

If the airplane is wanting to lift back off you have to much angle of attack for the speed, or to much speed for the angle of attack.

[Ed Cesnalis]

28 minutes ago, Stacy said:

Today I used 30 for the first time, with a passenger on board. I’ve landed many times with flaps at 30, by myself. 

Part of the reason I wanted to try it, was I thought with the xtra drag, I would be able to keep a little power in it and have more rudder authority. I made 3 landings, and was please with all 3.

The one thing I have not like about the CTSW, is the way it hangs in ground effect. Every plane I’ve owned or flew in the past, I’ve been able to kiss them on at speeds much higher than the stall speed. With the CTSW, I have a hard time getting the plane to stay on the ground with excess speed. 

If you keep a little power in remember to cut it to avoid the unwanted float.  It only takes a tiny amount to keep you 'hanging'

[Ed Cesnalis]

38 minutes ago, Roger Lee said:

Who cares if you go another 50' - 75' so long as it is a smooth touchdown.

Who cares if your touchdown is smooth so long as you don't go floating down the field.

Currently I'm flying a lot and my touchdowns are smoother than ever but its not important.

[Ed Cesnalis]

11 minutes ago, Roger Lee said:

Because smooth landings save my plane's landing gear, front suspension and the engine suspension. Going another 50' - 75' does nothing to the plane. I'm not sure why you're always worried about 5 knots of speed or if you go another 50' on a landing or why you believe all landings must be at full stall. The gigantic majority here and or other LSA don't land like that and they log hundreds of thousands of hours each year without any issue. This isn't about short field landings. Just your everyday landings. Planes are damaged far more often because of being too slow over a few knots more speed or leaving some throttle in for safety and control.

You only believe in one way to land, but there are many ways to accomplish a landing and do it safely. An open mind and multi trained landing mental toolbox is better equipped to handle odd situations. Closed minds have fewer second nature response mental toolboxes. Education is king when you include all facets. 

The full stall believers are few to say the least. It was just two of you here on this site.

I'm not always worried about 5 knots. My point is I prefer a firm contact to unwanted float like in a short field landing.  Including float makes the landing sequence imprecise.

My 11 year old CTSW gear legs are same as new with over 1,000 landings at the most difficult of fields.  I don't experience additional risk to my gear struts doing full stalls at Mammoth in fact just the opposite.

Preach to someone else about closed minds please mine remains open

[Ed Cesnalis]

19 minutes ago, Roger Lee said:

Speed on the ground isn't about anything other than stick and pedal control. You can taxi this plane at 60 knots on the ground all day. The stick will determine if that plane leaves the ground not speed alone. The pedals determine if you allow it to veer off the runway not speed alone. You can steer off a runway at 10 knots. You can cross the numbers at 100 knots and still land at your normal landing speed.

That can be really bad advise.  Taxiing at 60 kts puts you at the mercy of sheer.  If / when it happens there is no control in the CT to counter with.

The pedals cannot keep you on the runway at 60kts in all conditions because the amount of  contact with the runway can be diminished by a well timed and well directed gust.  The perfect gust will only make you light and introduce sideways skidding on your gear that you can't counter.  This is the case where a minimum speed landing has you far safer.

Erin and I watched my friend Yossie take off in his CT in front of me in Alturas and he got in that same condition.  By the time he departed the runway he was losing his ability to stay on it.  That was the scariest thing I have witnessed in a CT.  I have saved myself from this same result on landings more than once  by landing at minimum speed and when the challenging gusts did hit I was well planted and slow enough to not loose control.

[Ed Cesnalis]

At 60kts you may think you are taxiing your CT.  I think you are flying it with the wheels on the ground.

If its calm a 60kt taxi can be safe but on 2 wheels.  If its active at 60kts being on one wheel is a better deal.

[Tom Baker]

I teach my students that you are always flying the airplane by demonstrating that you can bank and turn the airplane on the ground while at or just below stall speed. My point in doing so is to prove that you can move the airplane back to the centerline even if you have already started your round out.

Roger, I am also in the full stall landing camp. I want students landing with the stick all the way back with minimum energy for the configuration. My approaches and landings differ from Ed's in that I choose to use 15° flaps as normal, with a little higher approach speed with power at idle. I teach students to make a little more gradual round out and flare to touch down, but I always want them to have the stick all the way back. I tell them the goal is to get as close to the ground as possible, but keeping the airplane in the air as long as possible. If I feel they touched down to soon I will pull the stick back to see if the airplane will rise back into the air. Starting out I am not as worried about them landing as short as possible, only smooth mechanics and touch down. By the time they are ready to solo I expect them to be able to tell me where they will touch down when they are on base.

[Duane Jefts]

For you newbees reading this post, I would like to add a comment.  BOTH  Roger and Ed are precisely correct.  Their differences, as I see it, is based on skill level of the pilot.

For those new and occasional pilots, maintaining a skill level landing with 30 flaps is probably not going to happen. In this case, fewer flaps and a (little) extra speed might be easier on the plane.

Something I don't really see discussed is level of proficiency.  When I was operations officer of VT-28 (Navy advanced training squadron), If one of my instructor pilots had not flown with a student in the past two weeks, he was required to fly with another instructor to bring his scan and proficiency level back to an acceptable level.  Yes, you can lose your "edge" after only two weeks. 

For someone like Ed that flies often, 30 flap proficiency is easy.  For Joe pilot that flies once every one, two, or three weeks, 30 flap proficiency will not be there for him.

Everyone should fly within their abilities and level of proficiency and I suspect that will be different for each pilot.

[Tom Baker]

43 minutes ago, Ed Cesnalis said:

At 60kts you may think you are taxiing your CT.  I think you are flying it with the wheels on the ground.

If its calm a 60kt taxi can be safe but on 2 wheels.  If its active at 60kts being on one wheel is a better deal.

You certainly have full control authority at 60kt. Tricycle gear airplanes tend to become unstable when on the ground as speed increases beyond lift off speed. The reason is you need to decrease the angle of attack as speed increases to remain on the ground. At some point you will have the angle of attack decreased to the point that the nose wheel is the only wheel left on the ground. The airplane becomes hard if not impossible to control while still on the ground at this point.

Tail wheel airplanes are different. You can easily decrease the angle of attack to remain on the ground up to the maximum speed that power will let the airplane go. I have been on the ground with a Taylorcraft at 105 indicated. This is about 10 MPH faster than cruise speed.

[Tom Baker]

2 minutes ago, Roger Lee said:

Tom,

What difference does it make to pull the stick all the way back to see if it rises. You can keep it forward and on the ground to. 

To prove that they are landing with to much energy. In my experience you can lose control of a CT that is on the ground to fast, if the pilot relaxes the controls. It is less likely to happen if you touch down with minimum energy for the configuration.

[Tom Baker]

1 minute ago, Roger Lee said:

"Something I don't really see discussed is level of proficiency."

 

Exactly. Newbies lack this and telling a newbie to be at stall on a landing may set them up for a smacked gear.

Full stalls have their place, but not for new people or in all situations. So proclaiming this is the only way is a good education for new people.

Full stall landings don't lead to smacked gear. Misjudging your height above the ground does. I have 27 years of teaching under my belt, and have always started new students out with full stall landings. Students need to be taught the right way first before developing bad habits.

[Tom Baker]

4 minutes ago, Roger Lee said:

"you can lose control of a CT that is on the ground to fast, if the pilot relaxes the controls."

Still the pilots fault for relaxing until stopped. He could still run off the runway or hit something at 15-20 knots.

This debate all orbits around proficiency. That should be taught first to new people and not high skilled landings.

Roger, as speed increase on the ground with a CT, or any airplane for that matter, the risk of something bad happening goes up dramatically. It is true that you can run off the runway at any speed, but the higher the speed the more energy, and the greater likelihood of doing greater damage or even death.

[Tom Baker]

8 minutes ago, Roger Lee said:

What makes a full stall the right way?

The knowledge learned over the past 100 plus years of aviation. Here is an excerpt from the FAA's Airplane Flying Handbook for a normal landing.

The round out and touchdown are normally
made with the engine idling and the airplane at minimum
controllable airspeed so that the airplane touches down on
the main gear at approximately stalling speed.

[FlyRatz]

Excuse me for jumping into this topic.

Recently I had some lessons in the Lockheed Super Constellation which is based in Zürich/Switzerland. At high angle of attack this bird develops more drag, than all the six engines are able to overcome. If you would flare this animal, it wont be able to do a go around. I tried it in their training simulator.....and crashed!

My lesson learned: Different birds require different techniques when it comes to landing.

In Germany we have a lot of short runways (~1000ft). Our acres are much smaller in size than in your country and our roads/highways are crowded and curvy. For an emergency landing you definitely want to be able to do landings at stall speed to have as less energy as possible at touchdown. This is why I teach it similar to Tom. The students learn to land at 15° with the stick all the way back. If they conquer this, I teach them to do the same at 30° and 40°.  Later in their career, I have no problem if they do landings with a little more energy in the system as Roger prefers. But they need to be able to do stall landings if necessary. In an simulated emergency I only accept landings at 40° with the stick all the way back (exception: heavy wind with gusts)

A good and safe 2018 to all of you, regardless your landing technique :-)

Markus

[Tom Baker]

1 hour ago, Roger Lee said:

"The knowledge learned over the past 100 plus years of aviation"

You're right better knowledge over time and not just one way.

Tradition just means thinking in the box and old ways. 

If stall is the right way why don't all aircraft land at stall? 

Roger, if you are going to quote me, why not quote the whole thing? I never said full stall landing was the only way. Those are words you keep trying to say I said, but that is not the case. What I said is a student should be taught the right way first. By the right way, I mean in line with what the FAA teaches. That is why I included the quote from the Airplane Flying Handbook. If you are flying an airplane like the CT that can be easily and safely landed that way, then it should be taught first. This style of landing will work with almost every small airplane a pilot will fly throughout their lifetime. Yes, there are airplanes that are an exception to the rule. Yes there are times where other than a full stall landing can and should be made. Wheel landings in a tailwheel airplane comes to mind. Just because a CT can be landed at a speed higher than stall speed, doesn't mean it should be landed that way. My experience with the CT is the faster you are while on the ground the more unstable the ground handling becomes. Why would you want to put your self in situation where the airplane is less stable on the ground?

[FlyingMonkey]

I think Duane hit the nail on the head, pilot proficiency is the key.  Not just for the airplane, but for the conditions and configuration in a given situation.  You can get very proficient with landing a CT at 15° flaps in calm winds, to the point that you can do it in your sleep.  But that does *not* translate directly into proficiency in gusty crosswinds at 30° flaps.  Same airplane and pilot, but a different technique and set of skill requirements.  I think what Roger and JohnnyBlackCT are saying is that you need to build up and work all those proficiencies into your bag of tricks, so you can pull out the appropriate one for whatever you are facing.  I agree with that.

When my CT instructor first released me into the wild on my own after I bought my CTSW, I made a lot of marginal landings.  I mean a LOT.  I was scared of crosswinds, 30° flap landings (forget about 40°), and lots of situations.  But I kept at it and spent a great deal of my flying time working on landings.  Over time I figured out what worked and what didn't, and why.  I received a lot of confirmation and correction from this forum, but hearing "if you round out too high you will run out of speed and drop it in" doesn't really get your attention like doing it a few dozen times. 

Now I've got close to 1000 landings in my CT, I have a pretty good handle on it.  That's not to say I never make a marginal landing, I still do occasionally.  But now I know what I did wrong, often as I'm doing it.  And "marginal" to me now means something different and less scary than it did when I was first learning.    The trick is to keep working on it, trying things a little differently, see what works, and build up to more challenging techniques like 30°/40° flaps on short or narrow runways.  In other words, build and maintain proficiency.

[Ed Cesnalis]

6 hours ago, Tom Baker said:

You certainly have full control authority at 60kt.

Yes you do.  My point is: at that speed you can totally loose control even with all of that authority because you have 3 wheels on the ground.

Its a perfect storm.  Gusts that make parked planes go flying are rare but gusts that disrupt a light sport that is landed but still at or above 60kts is a totally different story.  It can happen.

If you only have 1 wheel down at 60kts your prolly good but when the other main and then the nose come down you are suddenly unable to counter.  3 tires bouncing and skidding sideways is too disruptive.

[FlyingMonkey]

Roger was using 60kt taxi as an example.  He was not advocating taxi at 60kt.  Does anybody really think that?  We are arguing the wrong points here.

[Ed Cesnalis]

6 hours ago, Duane Jefts said:

For someone like Ed that flies often, 30 flap proficiency is easy.  For Joe pilot that flies once every one, two, or three weeks, 30 flap proficiency will not be there for him.

Duane,

You are right about currency not doubt. And  you might be right that its needed or for routine 30*.  But you might be wrong, this issue might be all about primacy.  I favor that one.

This morning Jeremy McGregor flew me home in my CT and I observed the landing carefully.  I did comment  'ah you favor the left side of the runway' and he was immediately able to drift to the center line and then touched down at 35kts IAS.  Plus it was perfectly smooth.  Primacy could explain that and currency doesn't currently exist.

[Ed Cesnalis]

8 hours ago, Roger Lee said:

Speed on the ground isn't about anything other than stick and pedal control. You can taxi this plane at 60 knots on the ground all day. The stick will determine if that plane leaves the ground not speed alone. The pedals determine if you allow it to veer off the runway not speed alone. You can steer off a runway at 10 knots. You can cross the numbers at 100 knots and still land at your normal landing speed.

Roger you always hear me wrong and that causes us to argue 2 different things.  I didn't say speed alone makes you leave the ground.  My point is that a gust that makes you leave the ground when parked will do so much more easily when your doing 60kt.  With rubber down and a disagreeable direction you are at the mercy.

I've seen this happen and I have had it happen to me and it cause me to avoid being on our runway tires down at 60kts.  

I can't understand how this problem isn't common in AZ.  You do have to tie down your planes there right?  If so why?

[Ed Cesnalis]

7 hours ago, Roger Lee said:

That's my point, you are the one in control so whether it's 45 knots or 60 knots you're doing the same You're in control or at least supposed to be until it stops.

Problem is that is not always true.  When you are most likely to get bitten is when you decided to land fast which sets you up.

I'm pretty sure I have heard you advise a higher rotation speed when its gusty.  You do that for the same reason that I advise minimum speed landing.  You do that because you know the sideways skidding is hard to control.  If you can get vulnerable on take off you can be vulnerable on landing or taxi.  Unwanted gusts can come at the worst time from the worst heading and with all the juice necsarry.  This can't be disputed and you are in agreement with your take-off advice.  The take off vulnerability is more commonly experience and many of us avoid it.

[Ed Cesnalis]

7 hours ago, Roger Lee said:

"Something I don't really see discussed is level of proficiency."

 

Exactly. Newbies lack this and telling a newbie to be at stall on a landing may set them up for a smacked gear.

Full stalls have their place, but not for new people or in all situations. So proclaiming this is the only way is a good education for new people.

You are arguing against 'proclaiming its the only way but no one is doing that.

If its correct that the rule of primacy outweighs the benefits you seek then you are not only wrong but strongly advising to avoid what is best.

I have well over 1,000 30* landings in my CT and have never been able to figure out what you are talking about, smacked gear.?  2006 was the record for smacked gear and the scenario that caused that was the Bonanza pilot using 40* and a Bonanza sight picture.  These types are not used to running out of energy.

A CT doesn't drop its nose it mushes.  Vertical speed control is what is lacking not the wrong config.

 

The big danger in a CT is running out of energy before you are landed.  Managing energy in our design when you are getting gusted is challenging and with 30* you can get there more suddenly.  

If the guy wasn't willing to use his flaps in his Cessna he isn't going to change when he gets a CT.