Short / soft field

[Ben2k9]

POH says to do this at 30 degrees flaps. In reality what have you guys found to be best?  Plane already lands pretty short with 15 flaps. 30 degrees comes in pretty steep. 

 

 

[Ed Cesnalis]

Color me 30, steep is good

[FredG]

I do what the POH says.  But, I also use my judgment and revise depending on what the conditions require (cross wind, how short is the "short" field and how soft is the "soft" field).  

[Tom Baker]

First off make sure you are studying the correct AOI, Your CTLS has 35° flaps. The later CTLS's only have 30°. For your check ride absolutely follow the AOI. If the examiner questions it you have documentation to back it up. Calm winds or headwind use full flaps. If you have any significant crosswind back off to 15° flaps.

[Ben2k9]

Thanks everyone 

[FlyingMonkey]

I agree with Ed, I use 30° for short and soft. It will minimize landing distance for shorter fields, give a steeper approach over obstacles, and less speed is always safer.  For really soft surfaces, be prepared to add a touch of throttle right before touchdown to minimize contact force.  You might not need it, but hard to predict in advance if you will or won't. 

[Runtoeat]

One of the best things about our CT's is the amount of flaps that can be used to one's advantage.  Older CTSW's, like mine, have 40 degree flaps.  Andy, I know that you have determined that 30 flaps perform best but I use 40 because I need to follow the process of KISS so I don't get confused.  A little off topic for landing but on topic for flaps:  Occasionally I'll practice using 40 flaps for short field takeoff for those times one may land and find the field to be unexpectedly very rough and/or soft.  It's amazing how fast the CT will rise off of the turf @ 40 flaps.  Immediately upon coming off the ground, I push forward and hold close to the ground until speed comes up to 50kts.  Next I bring flaps to 15 while offsetting the sink by holding back pressure on the stick and speed builds fast.  I'm on a express elevator going up and away.  It is important to stay close to the turf @ 40 flaps should the engine fail during this high drag portion of the takeoff but this procedure really limits the distance that the aircraft is exposed to rough or soft ground.  I would not recommend one does this if not experienced with the CT and how it responds to changes in flap settings.  If unsure, bring an experienced CT pilot along the first few times this is attempted.

T

[WmInce]

2 hours ago, Runtoeat said:

One of the best things about our CT's is the amount of flaps that can be used to one's advantage.  Older CTSW's, like mine, have 40 degree flaps.  Andy, I know that you have determined that 30 flaps perform best but I use 40 because I need to follow the process of KISS so I don't get confused.  A little off topic for landing but on topic for flaps:  Occasionally I'll practice using 40 flaps for short field takeoff for those times one may land and find the field to be unexpectedly very rough and/or soft.  It's amazing how fast the CT will rise off of the turf @ 40 flaps.  Immediately upon coming off the ground, I push forward and hold close to the ground until speed comes up to 50kts.  Next I bring flaps to 15 while offsetting the sink by holding back pressure on the stick and speed builds fast.  I'm on a express elevator going up and away.  It is important to stay close to the turf @ 40 flaps should the engine fail during this high drag portion of the takeoff but this procedure really limits the distance that the aircraft is exposed to rough or soft ground.  I would not recommend one does this if not experienced with the CT and how it responds to changes in flap settings.  If unsure, bring an experienced CT pilot along the first few times this is attempted.

That's excellent, Dick.

Believe it or not, but the same technique can be effectively used for the King Air . . . for times when you need to "get out of Dodge early." 

[Runtoeat]

Bill, pretty amazing that your comments refer to the King Air.  My friend and CFI Phil helped me learn this technique.  Guess what aircraft he flew for many years when he first started flying for Masco company??!!  Actually, I am both relieved and appreciative that your comments supported this.  I though I'd get flamed for suggesting this.  Things occur fast in the CT when this is done and one must know how the plane will respond and be ready to react.  I imagine it must be a VERY busy time doing this with the King Air when ALL of the other things like retrac landing gear, etc. are thrown in that our simple CT's don't have.  

[Anticept]

Now imagine calibrating an AoA indicator on a dynon

One of the four test configurations is full power, full flaps stall.

I can tell you, I grit my teeth each time I have to do it. Stall speed is 28 knots indicated on mine. I need 35-40 degrees of pitch. And, I run out of rudder authority just before the stall, so I have to sometimes abort it and try again because it will begin to dip a wing. A slight quick bump back right when I run out of rudder seems to be enough to do the stall, but if it goes too long before giving up, the left wing drops hard and it's really uncomfortable. I know the plane can take it, what I don't know is if it has a tenacity to spin in such a configuration (though, so far, answer has been no as long as I keep on that right rudder until the stall stops).

[Snoopyeagle]

My strip at the moment is only 300 meters of which in one direction on landing 50 meters is unusable due to trees so down to 250 Meters so I always land with 40 degrees of flap but you do need to follow Dicks advice above, Go around and 40 degrees of flap is no problem,

I’ve just purchased the rest of the field my strip is in so I’m now able increase the length to 500 meters which will make landings easier.

[FlyingMonkey]

I have no problem with landing with 40 flaps, I use 30 because I find it easier; all of the behaviors I don’t like at 30 (ballooning, dropping in) are worse at 40, so I try to set myself up for success.  I do practice at 40 often to stay proficient in that config.

[WmInce]

As with any approach and landing . . . it's all about energy management.

That said, at flaps 40°, it runs out of that fast.

Right about here . . . is where Ed chimes in.

"Take it away, Ed." . . 

[Ed Cesnalis]

Okay,

I'll add that the 30 and 40 landings are easiest if you pitch trim for speed control.  In a CTSW a good / correct approach attitude has level wingtips.

[WmInce]

6 hours ago, Ed Cesnalis said:

I'll add that the 30 and 40 landings are easiest if you pitch trim for speed control.

Thank you Ed. You did not disappoint.

I find that an excellent piece of advice. . . 

[Ed Cesnalis]

I spent a few months using negative 12 for landings and take-offs and learned that back pressure is needed on approach.

Now that it is over I am absolutely in love with my 30 and 40 settings.  I use them more even in biggish winds and shear.

[ls6pilot]

On 6/29/2018 at 6:29 PM, Snoopyeagle said:

My strip at the moment is only 300 meters of which in one direction on landing 50 meters is unusable due to trees so down to 250 Meters so I always land with 40 degrees of flap but you do need to follow Dicks advice above, Go around and 40 degrees of flap is no problem,

I’ve just purchased the rest of the field my strip is in so I’m now able increase the length to 500 meters which will make landings easier.

Snoopy, How do you do taking off with 2 people with that short field?  I can land short but Seems like my CTSW does not like to climb in the heat at higher weights.

[Ed Cesnalis]

13 minutes ago, ls6pilot said:

Snoopy, How do you do taking off with 2 people with that short field?  I can land short but Seems like my CTSW does not like to climb in the heat at higher weights.

Even with density altitude above 10,000' I am off the ground in 5 seconds with 15* flaps.  A CTSW that does not like to climb at sea level sounds wrong.

[ls6pilot]

Ed, Climbs like a banshee with just me even in the heat. Get spoiled. But put a 200 lb.er in the right seat and it climbs , but more like a few hundred feet per minute. 

[Snoopyeagle]

Rich:   Never have a problem taking off we are 320ft amsl and even with little wind 2 adults and fuel the ground roll is usually around 500 to 650 feet, sometimes in winter when ground is  wet I use 30 degrees of flap instead of 15.

 

Lawrence