Costs of Flying

[wlfpckrs]

For those who are considering taking flying lessons and buying an airplane, how much do you figure it costs you to fly - annually, per hour, etc?

 

With today's fuel costs, mine comes out to nearly $70 per hour, including rebuild put-aways, but not counting depreciation, interest expense, or opportunity cost. I have a 1/3 co-owner, who helps split some of the costs. I typically fly 140-150 hours/year.

 

Our fixed costs are $430/mo, which we split, but we only pay $50/month (total) for hangar space. Variable costs: We contribute $30/hour to a joint account for future maintenance. The joint account buys the home-based fuel, and we each reimburse the joint account for the number of gallons we use each month times the average cost of the fuel for the month. When away from home on trips, we each pay for fill-ups out of our own personal accounts.

[coppercity]

My LS is at about $85 per hour based on 400hrs a year. That's including hanger, operating costs, maintenance, engine account and a $6800 a year insurance premium because I use it for instruction and rental.

[NC Bill]

I figure more than $115 an hour spread over 125 hrs a year. I use 100LL and calculate $5@gal. Of course my hangar fee is high at $400, but insurance is reasonable at $2k+.

 

I've only owned 544CT a few months so I'm probably missing something. I'll attach a spreadsheet which documents my budget. Interested to see what other owners numbers are.

[Magnet]

I refuse to look at the costs, it scares me.

[Mick]

I refuse to look at the costs, it scares me.

 

SAVE MONEY fly more (less $ per hour)

[FastEddieB]

I refuse to look at the costs, it scares me.

 

I just looked at mine:

 

 

I flew 61.1 hours last year in my Sky Arrow. That works out to $102.71/hr.

 

That's higher than I figured, but I was grounded for about 3 months - more hours would have made for more expense, but decreased greatly the impact of the fixed costs.

 

Also not figured in is depreciation, or the "opportunity cost" of the money tied up in the plane, or any allowance for engine reserve.

 

It still seems when I fly its just for the cost of the gas, but that's clearly not the case.

 

FWIW, my hangar expense is increasing $50/month next month, and of course it looks like fuel prices will stay high or go even higher.

 

But I love flying my little Sky Arrow, which makes it all worthwhile.

[sandpiper]

At 80 hours/year my cost is about $39/hour just for gas, insurance and parts/pieces I use at annual & routine oil changes. That does not include the tail feather repair many of us had nor the Matco brake upgrade.

 

My hangar is attached to my house so that's free, right.

I also do my own work (OK, except for the tailfeather repair and resulting Las Vegas vacation since I tossed the tail in the motor home and drove it to Lone Mountain Aviation) so that doesn't count either, right?

And then there is the Dynon upgrade, sunvisors, carpet kit, the upcoming hose replacement, the upcoming parachute repack, etc

 

And I could go on but no sense scaring myself. For me, as opposed to someone in business, this is my retirement hobby and recreation. As long as I remain fortunate enough to be able to afford it I don't care what it costs. If I didn't blow it on this it would be something else or end up leaving it to the kids. Just don't tell my wife what it really costs. If she asks it's $39/hour. Oh, and did I mention this doesn't include the cost of what's in her crafts room that you could say was bought with hush money?? :blink:

 

Who brought this subject up anyway?

 

Seems like anything having to do with airplanes and flying always costs way more than we thought, or are willing to admit.

[S3flyer]

As was said earlier, fixed costs are really what drive your hourly TCO for those of us pleasure flyers/owners. I calculated last year at $110.19 but only flew around 70 hours (really bad year ). My big fixed costs, like all of us, are: Hangar - $3K/year, Insurance - $2K/year. At a 100 hrs/year this comes to $50/hr without fuel, maintenance, annual, cost of $$, etc. Seems it has always cost me around $100/hr for aircraft ownership (2 GA planes in the 90's).

 

I could justify/lower the costs by figuring in savings I make on trips (not too much last year ). Visited my daughter for around $175 in fuel/ramp fees versus $400 for commercial. I typically do a few like this each year. Doesn't really matter, though. Could calculate the health benefits too!

 

In the end, this is a hobby for me so I don't really care about the TCO as long as it doesn't make a dent in my wife's standard of living

[Tony & Rose]

Running a 06 CTsw, with 700hrs of flight school time; I'm near Eric's $85.00. Hard operating cost $52.00hr. Using his 400hrs/yr, add $12.50 dipric and another $20/hr for Rotax replacement and about $10/hr for Rotax 5/yr hose and other items like tires, etc = $94.50 for us...

[knolde]

I took a Priest friend of mine, who is a retired USAF Chaplin, up for a ride the other day; after landing he said he really enjoyed the flight and wished he could do more. I said he knew I fleww fairly often and all he had to do was call. He said he was really busy and and he asked me how much flying cost nowand doubted he could aford it. I told him that I had never sat down and figured it out, explaining Nancy bought the CT as a retirement gift and seemed able to handle the expenses.

 

Father then said he would call me in future and again said how much enjoyed flying and said he would leave the costs to me. I was not kidding whan I said I really did not know the costs, but I checked with my faithful inflight companion family reality based accountant and she said that including travel expenses we spent about $8000 per year. Needless to say that figure was quite a bit higher than I thought. However, I should mention the direct the compensations (gifts) are: the joy of flying, the realization that in all the world there are very few people who can do what you do; and the biggest gift of all--according to my Priest friend -- ALL THE TIME PILOTS FLY, IS INDEED THEIR TIME, BECAUSE GOD DOES NOT COUNT FLIGHT TIME AGAINST YOUR LIFESPAN!

 

Bottomline is that it is not cheap, but it is afordable if you want it to be so!

 

See ya, Ken Nolde N840KN 450 funfilled hours

[SalmonJo]

Just a quick question from a really really new guy. My understanding is with Private Pilot license you can be reimbursed a portion of costs as long as you pay your share. So, an hour flight cost $100, with one passenger you would be required to pay $50. Is that accurate and does that apply to LSA also?? I'm brainstorming ideas on how to build flight time while making somebody else pay for a portion of the cost. Say for example I offer to fly somebody who wants to look at a piece of real estate. They pay half the cost and I get more hours. Is that legit or does it cross over into using your aircraft for commercial purposes?

[Ed Cesnalis]

If I want to share expenses with my passenger I would ding them for $12 / hour for fuel and and maybe $0.50 / hour for oil. I think thats all that would be "legal." Guess I should know, the FAA busted my for flying for hire in 1993.

 

There are some limitations ie in order to share you must be making the flight for your own purposes.

 

If you are renting then sharing can include rental costs and really work out for you but if you own you should be limited to gas, oil, parking and landing fees.

[Jim Meade]

You can share expenses in your LSA. The flight must have a common purpose. That is, you have to have a personal reason to make the flight to that location at that time. You can not hold out to take people somewhere. The FAA position on this idea is quite strict.

 

You are allowed to accept up to the person's share of the immediate expenses of the flight. That is, you can not factor in the hangar rent, insurance, payment on the airplane, etc. You can accept pro rated share of money for expenses associated with the trip, like gas, charts you buy for that trip, ramp fees, etc. One pax can pay half. 2 Pax, each can pay 1/3, etc.

 

You are flying to the next airport and ask a friend if they'd like to ride along. They say yes and they'd like to pay something. You can accept half the gas, etc.

 

You tell a friend that if he wants to fly to a certain city you will do it, just let you know, and you'd like half the expenses. This is illegal. You are holding out as a carrier. You have no common purpose.

 

Your friend asks you to fly him to a given city, and he'll pay for it. You can not fly him because you don't have a common purpose and even if you could you could only accept half the expenses.

 

Your friend says that if you ever fly over to the next city, he'd like to go along and will pay his share. If you fly based on your own reasons to go and choose your own time to go, it may be OK. I think it's on the edge.

 

The deal is, who is to know about all of this? If everyone keeps his mouth shut, no one is the wiser, and where is the danger? But if one person talks or if there is an obvious pattern, like you take the guy to town every even day at 0800 and bring him back at 1500, there is some danger of being discovered. Who will turn you in? The FBO charter operator that you are beating out of an air fare will turn you in. The guy who you got in an argument with about how to fly the pattern will turn you in. The mechanic who thinks you tried to cheat him on his last work will rat you out. The goody two-shoes in the hangar next to you who is a holier than thou pilot will sell you down the river. When the accident occurs and the widow of the passenger says, well Fred said he hired you to fly him to town, the FAA and the lawyers will own you. If you don't get caught, big deal. If you do get caught, you'll be punished.

[FlyingMonkey]

You can share expenses in your LSA. The flight must have a common purpose.

 

Thanks for the summary Jim, it looks like you covered it all. The one circumstance where this becomes moot is when a friend says "I need a ride to X, can you fly me if I pay you something," and you just say, "Happy to give you a lift, but you don't need to pay me." Once money if off the table, you don't have to worry about any of this.

[coppercity]

Thanks for the summary Jim, it looks like you covered it all. The one circumstance where this becomes moot is when a friend says "I need a ride to X, can you fly me if I pay you something," and you just say, "Happy to give you a lift, but you don't need to pay me." Once money if off the table, you don't have to worry about any of this.

 

 

Well you cant charge him for the flight, but you could sell him a nice ball point pen for say $150-$200 bucks when you drop him off

[Jim Meade]

Thanks for the summary Jim, it looks like you covered it all. The one circumstance where this becomes moot is when a friend says "I need a ride to X, can you fly me if I pay you something," and you just say, "Happy to give you a lift, but you don't need to pay me." Once money if off the table, you don't have to worry about any of this.

 

Where is the common purpose? What reason did you have to go to this destination before your friend asked you for the ride? None, at least none at that time? I think you are in trouble if you do this. Money off the table doesn't matter. You have to have your own reason to go other than to take your friend, as I understand this. I'm not an aviation lawyer so don't take my word to the bank, but this is a subject one should feel comfortable about so one knows if one is getting close to or over the line.

 

 

 

[Ed Cesnalis]

Where is the common purpose? What reason did you have to go to this destination before your friend asked you for the ride? None, at least none at that time? I think you are in trouble if you do this. Money off the table doesn't matter. You have to have your own reason to go other than to take your friend, as I understand this. I'm not an aviation lawyer so don't take my word to the bank, but this is a subject one should feel comfortable about so one knows if one is getting close to or over the line.

 

Where is the requirement for a common purpose if no money changes hands?

 

I believe we have the privilege of flying passengers just not for hire. If my purpose is to fly my passenger to his/her destination that is fine.

[FlyingMonkey]

Where is the requirement for a common purpose if no money changes hands?

 

I believe we have the privilege of flying passengers just not for hire. If my purpose is to fly my passenger to his/her destination that is fine.

 

Exactly. You can't be a "pilot for hire" if you are not paid. You are just doing a friend a favor, which is not regulated by the FARs.

[Tom Baker]

Where is the common purpose? What reason did you have to go to this destination before your friend asked you for the ride? None, at least none at that time? I think you are in trouble if you do this. Money off the table doesn't matter. You have to have your own reason to go other than to take your friend, as I understand this. I'm not an aviation lawyer so don't take my word to the bank, but this is a subject one should feel comfortable about so one knows if one is getting close to or over the line.

 

If you had to have a purpose to go fly other than just wanting to go fly then many of us would never get off the ground. All the pilots purpose would have to be is the fact that he wanted to go flying and build some cross country time. I have guys here at the airport that show up just to go flying, and if someone gives the a destination to go to it is even better. They are not doing it for money, but it just goes to show purpose for a flight other than taking someone some place.

[Ed Cesnalis]

The difference is about expectations.

 

If you pay for a flight you expect a minimum level of safety coming from things like 100 hour inspections and appropriate pilot certificate ratings etc.

 

If you ask your friend that is a sport pilot of private pilot to fly you somewhere you do not expect safeguards provided to the public when they purchase air transportation.

 

The average Joe knows nothing of FARs but he does know when he pays a professional vs when he asks a friend for a favor.

[Jim Meade]

This is from an FAA pamphlet on the subject:

 

"Common Purpose Is Key

Underlying the concept of sharing expenses is the

notion that you and your passengers are taking

the flight for a “common purpose.” You and your

passengers must be taking the flight for a common

purpose; otherwise, you can’t even share the

expenses of the flight with them. Whether a bona fide

common purpose exists, however, depends on the

specific facts of the situation. This doesn’t mean that

you can’t ask people to fly with you and share some

of the costs, but the sole purpose of your flight can’t

be just to transport your passengers from one point

to another."

 

It comes from this document. http://www.faa.gov/news/safety_briefing/2010/media/SepOct2010-ComeFlyWithMe.pdf

 

Here are some more FAA rulings that talk to this issue:

 

http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/headquarters_offices/agc/pol_adjudication/agc200/interpretations/data/interps/2009/Mangiamele.pdf

 

http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/headquarters_offices/agc/pol_adjudication/agc200/interpretations/data/interps/2011/Haberkorn.pdf

 

http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/headquarters_offices/agc/pol_adjudication/agc200/interpretations/data/interps/2009/Bobertz.pdf

 

All the above quote the Chero letter, which is not on the database but can be found online. I'm assuming this is a correct copy.

 

"December 26, 1985

 

Thomas H. Chero

Vice President - Legal

AVEMCO Insurance Company

Frederick Municipal Airport

411 Aviation Way

Frederick, MD 21701

 

Dear Mr. Chero:

 

Thank you for your letters to this office, dated September 9, 1985, and October 23, 1985, respectively, concerning the actions of the Pilots and Passengers Association (PPA).

 

You are correct in stating that Section 61.118 of the Federal Aviation Regulations (FAR) prohibits private pilots from participating in PPA's operations. Section 61.118 provides that a private pilot cannot act as pilot in command of an aircraft that is carrying passengers for compensation or hire unless the flight falls within one of the four listed exceptions in 61.118(a) - (d).

 

Section 61.118( allows a private pilot to share the operating expenses of a flight with his or her passengers. Additionally, the FAA has interpreted 61.118( so that the only allowable share-the-costs operations are those which are bona fide, that is, joint ventures for a common purpose with the expenses being defrayed by all passengers and the pilot. Nor does Section 61.118 permit pilots who want to build up time toward their commercial pilot certificates to carry expense sharing passengers to a destination at which they have no particular business.

 

PPA pilots apparently would not share in the expenses of the flights they would undertake. It also appears that PPA pilots could be flying to destinations at which they had no particular business. The PPA system is not a casual one of an individual pilot wishing to take some friends or acquaintances with him on a trip. The PPA system would violate the letter, as well as the spirit, of Section 61.118.

 

Even if the pilot bears an equal share of the expenses with his or her passengers and indeed has his or her own need to fly to a particular destination, yet another problem arises. Since PPA's passengers would be solicited for flights by PPA from a broad segment of the general public, we conclude that each pilot carrying paying passengers from PPA would probably be engaged in common carriage. This means that each pilot would become an air carrier subject to the certification and operating rules of Part 135 of the FAR.

 

We appreciate your calling our attention to this matter.

 

Sincerely,

 

/s/

 

John H. Cassady

Assistant Chief Counsel

Regulations and Enforcement Division"

 

 

[Ed Cesnalis]

Jim,

 

We are now talking past each other. You are demonstrating that there needs to be a common purpose when sharing expenses. You began this by responding to MrMorden when he summarized / concluded that when a friend needs a ride you need to tell the friend "Happy to give you a lift, but you don't need to pay me."

 

If the passenger is not paying (sharing expenses) then there is no common purpose or related restrictions.

 

Notice the title of the article you posted "ComeFly with Me… (But, Let Me Check the Rules before You Pay Me)"

 

The article begins by estabilishing "a private, sport, or recreational pilot generally can’t act as pilot in command of an aircraft carrying passengers or property for compensation or hire."

 

Your posting above is only relevant when the issue is flying for hire or sharing expenses and MrMorden remains correct that the issue goes away when he decides not to take any money.

[Jim Meade]

Well you cant charge him for the flight, but you could sell him a nice ball point pen for say $150-$200 bucks when you drop him off

 

I'm glad yo put the emoticon in, because this is directly addressed by the FAA letters I quoted as illegal.

 

 

 

[Jim Meade]

Oops. I'm not sure I'm talking past someone as I just misread what he wrote. My mistake. What I posted was accurate but was not the appropriate response to his comment.

 

Everyone needs to keep in mind that the FAA sees almost anything as compensation, so playing tricks to get some kind of return for the flight is dangerous. But, if you genuinely give a free flight, you are OK as far as I can see.

 

Sorry for my long winded defense of an point that was never made.

 

 

[Ed Cesnalis]

Jim,

 

As I said above I was busted for flying for hire 20 years ago. In order for that to happen some guy had to call the FAA and file a complaint. He said that he gave me $90 which was true. If he would have said that he gave me $100 for a nifty $10 pen I would have still been busted.

 

You are right, its not how the money changes hands its if money changes hands that counts.

 

Back to the original question which was really about offsetting the cost of flying by sharing expenses. The real world answer is not to expect to alter your flying costs by expecting to see any meaningful amount of money from "sharing expenses" If I subtract the $90 mentioned above I have probably taken in less than 50 dollars in 20+ years.