slipping with flaps

[John Lancaster]

If too high on final approach, can I safely slip a CTLS with full (or for that matter partial) flaps? Could not find answer in POH but perhaps I missed something. Thanks

[FlyingMonkey]

As Bill said, yes.  I use slips a LOT to adjust my glide slope; I generally try to aim to be on the high side as I feel it's safer than being low, and that means scrubbing off excess altitude at some point.  I also land over trees into relatively short grass airfields pretty regularly, and slips are great for that.  Unlike Bill I will slip right down to within ten feet or so of the ground, though I don't recommend that for newcomers to the CT series. 

At least on the CTSW, be prepared that you might not be able to neutralize the slip by just letting off the pedal, you might have to feed a little opposite rudder in to get the nose to swing back in a timely fashion, especially in a full slip to the rudder stop.  The CTLS might not have that behavior, but I haven't flown one.

Bill mentioned speed increase when removing the slip, I see a larger speed increase when *adding* a slip.  When you put the slip in the nose tends to drop a bit and add speed; I have to add a little stick back pressure to keep the speed where I want it.  The good news, at least on my airplane, is that I've been able to use the normal approach numbers and they don't see to pick up additional error in the slip.  That is, if you are holding 55kt indicated on approach and go into a full slip, keeping your speed at 55kt indicated in the slip works out just fine.  This has been true in my CTSW down to 48kt or less.

[coppercity]

3 hours ago, John Lancaster said:

If too high on final approach, can I safely slip a CTLS with full (or for that matter partial) flaps? Could not find answer in POH but perhaps I missed something. Thanks

Yes you can.  With full flaps and a full rudder slip you might get a little bit of tail blanking and a bit of a nose bobble its not severe but if you feel that relax the rudder a bit.  I've not experienced this at 15 flaps or less.

[Ed Cesnalis]

I don't hesitate to slip with flaps.  

Slipping without flaps is more useful when conditions are volatile because I can accomplish the steep descent without giving up a lot of speed.  I would rather encounter negative sheer with more speed than flaps allow.

[John Lancaster]

Thanks guys, A reminder of why this forum is so helpful.

 

[GrassStripFlyBoy]

Concur with all here, I've never liked the low / flatter approach with 15 degrees, dragging airplanes in to landing can be a risky situation from obstacle clearance and engine out situations.  Higher flap settings help but still is not a rapid decent, but using a slip on either of these is my normal - and to Ed's point in the high winds & gusty mix use no flaps and just slip it which also helps when wheels touch down to already have the flaps up.  Having refined the feel for this also makes a lot of fun & sense of accomplishment in demonstrating skills to those flying with us, if you have passenger who is unfamiliar it's a good idea to share what you're about to do prior to crossing the controls when coming in on final.

[Animosity2k]

When performing slips in a CT it's just rudder and opposite aileron with a steady nose down pitch correct? 

[Tom Baker]

Rudder and opposite aileron, and pitch as needed to maintain airspeed. 

[FlyingMonkey]

55 minutes ago, Animosity2k said:

When performing slips in a CT it's just rudder and opposite aileron with a steady nose down pitch correct? 

What do you mean by "steady nose down pitch"?  When you go into a slip, the nose will naturally fall a bit, but it's hard to tell because your sight picture changes and now you're looking off to the side to see where you're going.  If you push the nose down, you'll pick up speed fast.  I'd recommend holding a slight amount of back pressure, and then adjusting based on your indicated airspeed.  In a deep slip I am often putting in what feels like significant back pressure and a slightly nose high attitude to maintain speed.  You can of course do the same thing by adding nose up trim, but then you run the risk of being out of trim when you take the slip out and having to hold forward pressure on the stick to keep the nose down. 

I've talked to my instructor about this, and he says it's common behavior in slippery composite airplanes, and that the same thing happens in his flight school Diamonds.

[FlyingMonkey]

5 minutes ago, Tom Baker said:

Rudder and opposite aileron, and pitch as needed to maintain airspeed. 

Mine was wordier, but yeah, that. 

[AGLyme]

Slip is the next frontier for me so I am grateful for the wisdom on this thread. 

I have the 30 degs flaps thing down.  We have a lot of shear at home base so I go East a bit to a small airport called "Goodspeed", which is on the CT River.  I flew into Goodspeed - 42B -  the other day, setting up on Final over the swinging bridge and right over a boat (the boaters came out of their cabin and stood on deck and I could literally see their mouths open with the "what the ..." expression) on Final (Goodspeed is literally right on the CT River) and set the plane down. 

Learned that trimming "down" having to hold a slight back pressure on the stick works best for me on landings, in fact, after a year of solo flying the CT, my landings have recently graduated from a strong C to a A-.  

Once I get the slip thing down, I am going for the grass field landings.  My grass field prep to date is watching the FMonkey videos... they are exceptionally well done Andy.

 

[Warmi]

3 hours ago, FlyingMonkey said:

What do you mean by "steady nose down pitch"?  When you go into a slip, the nose will naturally fall a bit, but it's hard to tell because your sight picture changes and now you're looking off to the side to see where you're going.  If you push the nose down, you'll pick up speed fast.  I'd recommend holding a slight amount of back pressure, and then adjusting based on your indicated airspeed.  In a deep slip I am often putting in what feels like significant back pressure and a slightly nose high attitude to maintain speed.  You can of course do the same thing by adding nose up trim, but then you run the risk of being out of trim when you take the slip out and having to hold forward pressure on the stick to keep the nose down. 

I've talked to my instructor about this, and he says it's common behavior in slippery composite airplanes, and that the same thing happens in his flight school Diamonds.

In my "composite" plane I always adjust trim all the way back for landings - I like to feel the pressure on landings , lets  me know exactly where I am as far as my pitch is concerned -   and yeah , with slips if I don't hold back pressure I will definitely speed up . I guess as you become more familiar with your plane you get more comfortable with holding quite a bit of back pressure .. at least for me that was case - my initial slips often ended up with about 10 knots gain  

[Runtoeat]

Our CT's have impressive capability when the various "tools" are utilized.  Full flap landings provides rapid altitude reductions when needed but when a slip is combined with the full flaps, it is dramatic how fast an over-height approach can be corrected or a landing can be achieved should there be trees preventing a normal approach.  As Bill says, just be aware that the pitot might be kept out of the normal air flow during a slip,  To insure adequate airspeed is being maintained, I keep an slight extra margin of airspeed until near touchdown during this maneuver.  For those who are not familiar with doing a slip, I would recommend bringing someone along who is familiar with this the first few times it is done.  I do not observe slips being utilized at the airports near me when it comes to conventional GA aircraft.  I rarely see a Cessna or Piper other than the Cub doing slips.  Many times, when I have used a slip, I might get a radio call from a tower or another aircraft letting me know that they enjoyed watching this.  Not something they often see but should because this is an important maneuver to know how to perform.  And it is fun to do.

[WmInce]

Just one more tool in your toolbox.

[AGLyme]

The FBO at our airport suggested strongly that I always land at least 1/3 of the way down the runway due to constant shear at both ends.  He said straight up that he is no fan of LSA's due to their lightness... So, I need to come in higher than normal.  Perhaps the slip is the ticket.  I watched a bi-plane land a couple of times and each time he came in, he was high... then he slipped both times and he landed beautifully.  It was a little gusty too.  Next time up I will practice the slip.

[Runtoeat]

Really just a exaggerated forward slip you normally do when crabbing to land in a crosswind.  You hold your position on the center of the runway during this by maneuvering left or right by using ailerons (side slipping).  Try practicing by getting down a few hundred feet AGL above a long straight road at first to get a good sense of how you're controlling the plane.  Our CT's have the ability to climb with full flaps under full power.  When actually doing the forward slip landing, if it doesn't work out, add full power, stay near the ground, maintain good speed with elevator and reduce flaps in increments as speed builds.  Just remember that the nose will want to rise when power is first  added with full flaps so initial forward stick is needed to stay near the ground.  As each notch of less flaps is used, the nose will want to drop so stay active on the stick to maintain ground separation but level to allow speed to build.  When 15 lap is achieved, start climbing.  I use a full flap takeoff on rough fields which repeats the above procedure.  This results in much less time on rough ground during the take off roll.  All a lot of fun and a good feeling of accomplishment.

[Mike Koerner]

This forum is certainly is a source of good information, but I'm feeling a bit uncomfortable here... and I'm going to share. Sorry.

Many years ago, my brother flew hang-gliders. One day at the practice slope he came upon a guy teaching himself to fly. No helmet. No instructor. He was already scrapped up and bloody, but determined. He kept pulling the glider back up the hill to try again. My brother left rather than hang around till the end of the story.

We don't need to be that guy. We can get an instructor to show us how it's done, to point out what we doing wrong and to help us learn to do it right. It's not that expensive compared to the alternative.

Mike Koerner

[WmInce]

18 hours ago, Mike Koerner said:

. . . . .  a guy teaching himself to fly . . . . We can get an instructor to show us how it's done, to point out what we doing wrong and to help us learn to do it right.

Mike,

With all due respect, I don't think anybody here is suggesting that.

Of course, it is better to get some dual time with an instructor. But at the same time, and I speak for myself, I see nothing wrong with exchanging pilot techniques and sharing our collective experience with the newer cadre. Before I obtained experience in the CT type, I found the information on this forum very helpful as I progressed along in my training.

I am still learning . . and I thank the pilots on this forum for passing on their words of wisdom.

[FlyingMonkey]

20 hours ago, Mike Koerner said:

This forum is certainly is a source of good information, but I'm feeling a bit uncomfortable here... and I'm going to share. Sorry.

Many years ago, my brother flew hang-gliders. One day at the practice slope he came upon a guy teaching himself to fly. No helmet. No instructor. He was already scrapped up and bloody, but determined. He kept pulling the glider back up the hill to try again. My brother left rather than hang around till the end of the story.

We don't need to be that guy. We can get an instructor to show us how it's done, to point out what we doing wrong and to help us learn to do it right. It's not that expensive compared to the alternative.

Mike Koerner

I don't think anybody is suggesting people teach themselves how to fly, Mike.  This forum is almost exclusively comprised of certificated pilots.  We already know how to fly.  We're simply exchanging "tips and tricks" to refine our techniques.  Did any of us know everything we needed to know about flying the day we passed our check ride?  How about the day we finished our transition training in the CT?  Of course not!  So how do we fill in the missing pieces of the puzzle?  We have to practice.  And isn't it better to share the results of our practice sessions with each other, so that we can all benefit from our collective experience and not have to all make the same mistakes?

If somebody asks "can you slip the CT safely with flaps" and members here know the answer, shouldn't they share that?  If there are caveats about doing it, shouldn't they share that as well?  I don't want to have a CT community where the answer to every flying technique question is "go ask an instructor, if you can find one who knows anything about how the CT flies".  

[DJ Todd B]

Here I am at Goodspeed Last year.

[FlyingMonkey]

Nice little airport, DJ...looks like about 2000ft runway?

[AGLyme]

ah, I did 2 takeoffs and and landings there just this morning...DJ, the wind was from the south, so I used runway 14... note the bridge in the background of your 2nd pic, which crosses the Connecticut River... The approach over that bridge and river is a blast... and then taking off over the marsh/river in your 1st pic, which again meets up with the CT River...  Runway is 2,100' x 50' from memory.  You don't want to lose an engine on either approach which makes it challenging.  It is my go-to practice airport.  It is worth Google Mapping and visiting when you are in the area.  

[Mike Koerner]

Bill and Andy, you’re right; the discourse is valuable. I wouldn’t want that to stop!

And my comments weren’t aimed at the original poster, or anyone in particular. The forum has 1577 members with a wide range of experience levels.

I’d just like to remind people that a flight instructor is a great way of getting flight instruction. And even if they haven’t flown a CT, they know how to slip.

Mike Koerner

[AGLyme]

Took this photo of Goodspeed airport today.  Note, at the top of the photo -- looking South -- is Long Island Sound (Atlantic Ocean).  The approaches are cool.

 

[nubpilot]

awesome picture, wife and I drove past that airport a few weeks ago but I prefer this view better.  I love going up with friends that are still flying during all this mess.  the view from 1500-2000' is much better than on the ground any day.  There is some bad history with a Kappa and that airport, which is what halted my training.