Used Purchase Advice

[emsquared]

While shopping for a good LSA-compliant antique in the $30K range, I bumped into a 2007 CTSW that's lived most of its 3000-hour life as a trainer for a bit under $50K. That might be just barely doable on my cash (do not want a loan) budget. Norman costs of ownership and operation are not a huge concern. Big 4- and 5-figure bills to address serious issues within the first few years of purchase scare me. It's my first airplane, and I'm still a few solos and a checkride from my certificate. I recognize insurance costs will be staggering the first year or two. My main question is: How risky is it to buy a CT former trainer? What would you pay particular attention to? This particular aircraft has damage history to MLG and a wingtip, since repaired and logged, from a very hard landing. Should that be a deal breaker? How reliable is VREF for a high-time CT with a replacement, mid-life engine? I've had one person tell me it's probably $5K under market but several others who think it should be worth no more than high $30s. None of these people actually own a CT. 

I'm obviously going to have a pre-buy done, and I've gotten a couple of names for mechanics with Rotax and CT-specific experience near the flight school that is selling it. Is there anything else I can or should do? I've always had this idea that Flight Design is sort of the "Mercedes" of the factory-built LSA market, and the plane's looks, interior space, useful load, and even the placement of the throttle and flight controls all appeal to me. Is it less risky to stretch a bit and buy this relatively new but higher-time modern LSA or spend maybe half as much on a lower-time, well-maintained antique that is LSA-compliant (with the inability to due any maintenance whatsoever due to the sport ticket). It seems like the CT is a no-brainer, but I don't know enough to make that judgment. All I know for sure is I REALLY WANT IT. 

[GrassStripFlyBoy]

Welcome to the forum, I'm thinking you're looking at N359CT on Barnstormers?  To share input on a few of your questions, there is always a wild card of some expense popping up, but these are simple airplanes and that is generally a really low percentage and risk.  That bird having a newish engine is a positive.  Damage history is not a huge deal if understood, and trainers often have multiple gear mishaps in the log book.  So long as the plane was not obviously "wrecked hard" and questionable repairs, those aspects don't scare me, others will differ opinion, either way it's in the logs and impact again when you decide to sell it.  The higher time on airframe and trainer history does diminish value.  I've watched the market closely the last couple of years, buying an '06 SW ten months ago.  My opinion on that plane, knowing little beyond the ad and what you posted, is that a fair price would be in the low to mid 40's.  This is based on the idea an SW in this year range, with well under 1000 hours, and never a trainer / no damage, can be found in the 50's, and sell in the very low 50's.  Not taking a shot at those Dynon's in it, they are ok, but understand this panel is getting a bit dated and people often have bugs with them.  Glass panels are not created equal, technology changing often, those don't really add much to this plane compared to non-glass.  The TruTrak auto pilot has INOP sticker on it, they sold to BendixKing and not so hot on support these days.  Plan 1-2 thousand to repair / replace that or simply remove it.  If you care to connect on more particulars, happy to share some advice - PM me your phone number if you're seriously buying one.  Good luck, I absolutely love my CT, they are fantastic airplanes. 

 

[emsquared]

N359CT is her, yes, and I already like saying it into my mic. I'm going to go for a demo next week. Really, really appreciate your comments, those are helpful, especially re: the panel and AP. I assume there's authorization to upgrade those.

I was very pleasantly surprised at the AP Aerospace insurance quote. Not as happy about the nonexistent hangar space at my closest airports. Sure starting to feel like I own it, though.

I'll get you my contact info when I get to a computer and figure out how. 

[GrassStripFlyBoy]

Enjoy the trip and demo.  It takes a while to transition into these, not hard to land well just more so time to develop the sight picture and such, and then more hours to expand into higher winds / cross winds, shorter runways, etc.  There are helpful posts here, but it really is simply getting the hours in the plane.

Panel options in LSA have more options over standard aircraft, and the design of CT is super easy for updating with front mounted inserts.  Avionics shops are not cheap though.  I converted my CT to experimental which allows owner to do all the work, if that interests you can share more.  And those older Dynons are fine, I'd not be in rush to change them.

Thinking about market price, here's some other data points.  There was an older CT2k in midwest with ~1k hours, it was on the market a long time at $39.9k.  Others have listed these 05-07 SW range birds in the high 50's, and then have seen them relist months later at ~50 before selling.  The '06 with 500 hours that's also on Barnstormers now has been on market at least 6 months at $58k.  If $50 is your budget might be worth talking to that seller too, nothing lost in asking.  Here's something to look at for ref that sold this year:

My forecast is the market going softer yet, flying season is peak now, and economic volatility.  Good time to be a cash buyer.  To PM click on my name in header of post, takes you to profile page where you can send message. 

[AGLyme]

3 hours ago, GrassStripFlyBoy said:

My forecast is the market going softer yet

I would agree, but... offset by people who want to "covid" doing something fun like boating and airplane driving... one of my friends has a boat "share" company (he sells shares of boats, he maintains them and gases them and people schedule the boats, bring their families to the dock and off they go)... business is BOOMING and some airplane sales I have witnessed locally are selling within the week with little discounting.

Granted the economy is terrible, and, the need for professional pilots has gone in reverse and will stay that way for a couple of years according to the airlines... so yeah one would think that airplane sales would suffer as they have suffered in every recession.

Maybe people are saying the hell with it, if MSNBC is telling me I that my kids can't go to school, that I can/should only work from home and the rest of the world is going to rack and ruin, I may as well have fun... 

Weird economy out there Darrell... 

[AGLyme]

No shizz Bill... that’s the point 

[sandpiper]

I hear, but have no facts, that boats and recreational vehicles are selling so fast that dealers can't keep them in stock. We took a motor home trip the first couple of weeks of July and found that campgrounds were pretty full and not just with people riding out economic hard times.

So, quite a few people have money and are spending it. As for full campgrounds a common thread was that people had been cooped up for several months and were getting out.

Don't know if any of this is spilling over into aircraft sales.

[GrassStripFlyBoy]

Agree that many toys are selling well, and homes in most all but the extreme high end CA markets.  I've been watching both global and US trends on major economic indicators.  I see a giant rubber band being stretched further and further each day.  Maybe all will be cool and we are able to relax the stretch back down, or maybe it snaps - and if it does it will certainly be a harsh deal.  The real economy is not connected to the financial economy (stock market), strange days for sure.  Banks are now at higher reserves of cash for loan loss provisions than the '08 saga, unemployment went up this week, China stock market went down 5-6% Friday, every major indicator such as consumer debt, mortgage forbearance, new filings for business bankruptcies are accelerating, on and on - that speaks volumes.  I'm an optimistic long game player, but have serious concerns that appear to be in the Q4 timeframe and forward into '21.  Some reputable people are saying this "new normal" (I hate that phrase) will be in place through Q3 of next year.  That's 12 more months, I don't see the free money / QE keeping the game going that long.  I poll every client I speak to regarding business health, how many laid off, how much work they have at moment, quoting new business / outlook forward.  90% report the same story, hanging on, doing ok, but very concerned on what is coming in Q4 and PPP just ended.

Was at the airport this morning for a flying club "fun day", did some air games and a cook out, still only a fraction of the club attends due to older fellas have concern which is completely understandable.  One of my pals bought a new side by side ATV early covid timeframe with heavy dealer discounts, he sold it last week for 5k more than he paid for it because dealers are now sold out.  

I really really hope things stay healthy in all respects and my views are not meant to be an alarm.  I bought the CT before covid and would do so again today, its just another form of an investment and probably a safer one than other choices at the moment. 

[AGLyme]

Agree with you there Bill... I think many people think the end of the world is coming.  But it’s not.  Most certainly there will be financial collapse given all the Fed, State, Local, Corporate, and personal debt around the globe.  I believe the only way to counteract all this negativity is to go flying in the CT and enjoy the freedoms we enjoy in this fabulous country.