Grass SF takeoff advice please

[AGLyme]

I would be grateful to hear about various techniques for shortest takeoff.  I have an LS so max flaps is 30 degs.  

I tried both 30 and 15... I thought 30 was better/more effective... but FD recommends against 30... 

thx in advance 

[GrassStripFlyBoy]

Hey Andrew.  First - go as light as loading as you can, ditch any extras in the baggage compartment as well as fuel level being appropriate for mission - half tanks is still a lot of endurance.  Weight is the largest factor in take off performance regardless of technique.  Air temp and headwinds are equally important contributors.

I'm a fan of max flaps, so long as you respect the Vfe speeds there is no technical "reason" I'm aware of, I'd suspect FD recommends against with abundance of caution from perspective of pilot skills, not an airframe limitation.

I like to go to full RPM with brakes set, confirm engine op is situation normal, then dump the brakes to start rolling with every bit of thrust possible from the start.

Pull nose wheel up / off, and try to ride the main with pitch up take off attitude, this is sort of typical for any airplane in soft field technique, but for our higher performing CT's this makes for and equally good short field technique as we tend to jump off the ground quick, and you need to break ground and get flying for max perf.  The plane will fly when it wants, which is just about at stall speed or perhaps a bit lower considering the ground effect and max flap configuration.  Let the speed build and climb with an ever increasing airspeed, this happens at a fairly quick rate, and go to 15 degrees only when well into the white arc, don't rush the first notch of flaps up.

Use caution if gusty.  Use caution when you add a passenger and the weight / performance changes.  Have fun, these exercises make us better pilots. 

 

[Tom Baker]

I would say 15° flaps, rotate at 44, climb at 54 until clear of obstacles. Then go to normal climb. You might get off the ground quicker with 30° flaps, but your climb rate will be better with 15°. I have not verified angles with the different flap settings.

[Tom Baker]

1 minute ago, GrassStripFlyBoy said:

Hey Andrew.  First - go as light as loading as you can, ditch any extras in the baggage compartment as well as fuel level being appropriate for mission - half tanks is still a lot of endurance.  Weight is the largest factor in take off performance regardless of technique.  Air temp and headwinds are equally important contributors.

I'm a fan of max flaps, so long as you respect the Vfe speeds there is no technical "reason" I'm aware of, I'd suspect FD recommends against with abundance of caution from perspective of pilot skills, not an airframe limitation.

I like to go to full RPM with brakes set, confirm engine op is situation normal, then dump the brakes to start rolling with every bit of thrust possible from the start.

Pull nose wheel up / off, and try to ride the main with pitch up take off attitude, this is sort of typical for any airplane in soft field technique, but for our higher performing CT's this makes for and equally good short field technique as we tend to jump off the ground quick, and you need to break ground and get flying for max perf.  The plane will fly when it wants, which is just about at stall speed or perhaps a bit lower considering the ground effect and max flap configuration.  Let the speed build and climb with an ever increasing airspeed, this happens at a fairly quick rate, and go to 15 degrees only when well into the white arc, don't rush the first notch of flaps up.

Use caution if gusty.  Use caution when you add a passenger and the weight / performance changes.  Have fun, these exercises make us better pilots. 

 

While the CTSW and the CTLS do fly somewhat similar, they also fly somewhat different. My advice is that when you are offering specific flying advice make sure you mention which airplane you are offering it for.

[FlyingMonkey]

All the advice here so far is good.  I always land at 30° on grass (occasionally 40° if it's super short), always takeoff at 15°.

Try to get off the ground quickly, then at 5-10ft lower the nose  and level out to gain some speed, and then climb out.  If you try to stay nose high and climb out like that your rate of climb will be anemic.

[AGLyme]

Thank you all, great advice...

[Jim Meade]

Page 5-10 Airplane Flying Handbook for short field.  Soft/rough field is different.  Obstacles or not matters.  Generally, the guidance is start with appropriate flaps (per POH/AFM).  No benefit noted for most planes starting with brakes and max RPM.  Keep aircraft on the ground until rotation speed (minimize drag).  Etc.  The AFH is pretty good for the most part.  Remember to not mix types to avoid confusion.

[FlyingMonkey]

4 hours ago, Jim Meade said:

Page 5-10 Airplane Flying Handbook for short field.  Soft/rough field is different.  Obstacles or not matters.  Generally, the guidance is start with appropriate flaps (per POH/AFM).  No benefit noted for most planes starting with brakes and max RPM.  Keep aircraft on the ground until rotation speed (minimize drag).  Etc.  The AFH is pretty good for the most part.  Remember to not mix types to avoid confusion.

Sometimes you do have to mix them...I have done some "short & soft" operations.  I can't remember which magazine, but one of the flying mags had an article a few years ago about combining short & soft field operations. 

[Jim Meade]

AFH, page 5-11.  

"The pilot must be aware that the correct takeoff
procedure for soft fields is quite different from the takeoff
procedures used for short fields with firm, smooth surfaces."

[Tom Baker]

13 hours ago, FlyingMonkey said:

Sometimes you do have to mix them...I have done some "short & soft" operations.  I can't remember which magazine, but one of the flying mags had an article a few years ago about combining short & soft field operations. 

Probably not as critical for the CT, but with many aircraft if you have both soft and short to deal with, it is a recipe for disaster.