VFR on Top

[GrassStripFlyBoy]

View from 7.5k is much nicer than 3k, days like this are exactly why I keep thinking of IFR ticket, very thin layer with occasional breaks / holes, fine for local hop playing around but would not go long cross country without being in the IFR system

[okent]

Me too Darrell.

[Garrett Gee]

One of the reasons I went experimental.  These airplanes make a good cross country platform, and not a bad IFR platform for the thin layer days.  You do have to be extremely careful this time of year though (icing), and from experience, hard IFR/hard rain can be a problem (ask me how I know).  Other than that though (which I think a pitot with a drain would fix), it is a great IFR airplane, especially with the dual SkyView system and autopilot.  It has more redundancy than the G1000 Diamond DA42 I teach in. I have flown approaches with a GNX 375 in actual down to about 600 feet with absolutely not problem.  Throw in an IFR NAV radio with ILS, and it would be even better, but most places have GPS that goes down to 250 AGL anyway.

Note: I am IFR rated...

[Skunkworks85]

I find my self doing this as well, I  keep the distances to less than 100nm and I am continuously monitoring the weather where i am going to to make sure i can get back through.

100% of the time I am also talking to ATC. 

I agree that it would be a issue this time of the year to get through the layer. 

Further more, Last Thursday I was flying though some moderate snow, It was -8 F at the altitude I was at, So the snow was solid and there was no ice building up on anything. My airspeed indicator started to slowly drop, Before I entered the snow, it was showing 121 indicated, and about 3 mins into it it had dropped to 95 indicated, but by ground speed did not change.  I continued on to my fuel stop where I warmed the tube up for about 5 mins, and when i took off again, all was right.

It is my firm belief that this airframe needs to have pitot heat and a drain system regardless. I understand that MOST ct flyers are fair weather only fliers, I use mine for long Cross Country trips. And if you are going to be using it for that, You will never go anywhere if you wait for CAVU days..

 

This last Monday over the Black Hills of South Dakota.

 

 

yo

 

[FlyingMonkey]

I do lots of long cross country VFR only.  You just have to accept that there will be weather delays and the occasional unscheduled overnight.  IMO, if you are trying to use these airplanes to make a set schedule in marginal weather you're doing it wrong and setting yourself up for trouble.

[Skunkworks85]

4 minutes ago, FlyingMonkey said:

I do lots of long cross country VFR only.  You just have to accept that there will be weather delays and the occasional unscheduled overnight.  IMO, if you are trying to use these airplanes to make a set schedule in marginal weather you're doing it wrong and setting yourself up for trouble.

Trust me there is no set schedule, I allow a week of lee way, and always am prepared to travel (or stop) with alternate means. I have never been on a 1000+ mile one day trip that does not have some sort of weather issue. 

[Skunkworks85]

3 minutes ago, WmInce said:

Just as a friendly reminder, it is against FAR's for light sport only pilots to fly above a solid undercast.

Humm, I didn't know that, the disclaimer should be on here then. Im a PPL with valid medical. 

[Towner]

Ok, probably a stupid question, but what is the definition of “ visual reference to the surface “?  If a sport pilot is flying above an overcast area, but it is clear 20 miles away and that ground can be seen, is that considered visual reference? How about seeing mountain terrain coming up from the overcast layer. Where I’m at in the Central Valley of California, both situations are not uncommon.

I understand the risks of flying above an overcast layer, but I was returning home once on a long cross country, and home was forecast to be VFR on my arrival time. It wasn’t and I flew over the overcast to an airport 50 miles away on the other side of the valley, past the hills, where it is always clear when Home is not. I’m a private pilot, but would this be ok as a sport pilot?

[GrassStripFlyBoy]

1 hour ago, Skunkworks85 said:

Humm, I didn't know that, the disclaimer should be on here then. Im a PPL with valid medical. 

Ditto - PPL not a sport pilot.

[FlyingMonkey]

3 hours ago, Towner said:

Ok, probably a stupid question, but what is the definition of “ visual reference to the surface “?  If a sport pilot is flying above an overcast area, but it is clear 20 miles away and that ground can be seen, is that considered visual reference? How about seeing mountain terrain coming up from the overcast layer. Where I’m at in the Central Valley of California, both situations are not uncommon.

I understand the risks of flying above an overcast layer, but I was returning home once on a long cross country, and home was forecast to be VFR on my arrival time. It wasn’t and I flew over the overcast to an airport 50 miles away on the other side of the valley, past the hills, where it is always clear when Home is not. I’m a private pilot, but would this be ok as a sport pilot?

I think it's left intentionally vague.  The FAA likes to do that.  A "ceiling" is considered a broken or overcast layer, so that is probably the easiest definition.  I'm a Sport Pilot, and generally if I can see the ground, even if only through gaps, I consider it good if I could descent through the gaps safely.  That said, I very rarely fly over a layer that could be considered scattered or worse.

[207WF]

A knowledgeable instructor giving me a flight review once opined that visual reference to the surface is satisfied if you are on top but can see the distant mountains.    WF

[Tom Baker]

Another thing to consider for a sport pilot being required to have a visual reference to the ground is that they may not be trained in, and are not tested on electronic navigation. That being the case you will need visual reference to the earths surface for navigation.

[FlyingMonkey]

Since we're on the topic, we might want to discuss what to do if you get on top of a layer and it closes up under you, leaving you "trapped on top".  This happened to a guy I know not long ago, he was able to proceed on course and find a hole to descend through, but he was over 100mi on top.  He is a Sport Pilot.  Here is my strategy:

1) Evaluate fuel: how much time do you have to solve the problem?  How far can you go?
2) Evaluate the weather behind.  If it's solid under you and for the foreseeable distance ahead, your best option is often to turn around.  After all, you got up there somewhere behind you...

3) If you have turned around or proceeded ahead looking for a hole and can't find one, contact ATC and let them know you are a VFR pilot on top of a layer with no good way to get down.  They can vector you to better weather or otherwise assist in descending through the layer.  If you are low on fuel or conditions are worsening, declare an emergency to make sure ATC knows things are getting dire.  Don't hesitate to declare if you need to -- I have never heard of anybody getting in trouble for declaring an emergency.  You've made an honest mistake, just  solve the problem.

4) You will need to evaluate the conditions below the layer, with ATC's help and/or through AWOS/ATIS reports.  If you have sufficient ground clearance under the layer, you might have to descend through the clouds at some point.  If your airplane doesn't have any kind of attitude indication (my acquaintance didn't!), then you want this to be an absolute last resort.  Ditto if conditions are cold and icing is a possibility.  I'd rather continue a long distance over the top than descend through, if necessary.  Luckily our CTs hold a lot of fuel and are efficient in fuel burn.

5) If a descent through the layer is required, let ATC help you find the best place to do it. If you have an autopilot, use it!  Let the AP make the descent while you watch the instruments.  The AP doesn't get confused or disoriented, though you have to monitor it throughout the descent and cross-check against your attitude indication, airspeed, inclinometer, and vertical speed to make sure the AP is doing what you intend it to do.  Without an AP you have to make the descent by hand, and you have to trust your instruments over your limbic system.  This is a true emergency and very dangerous for a VFR pilot.   Stay in contact with ATC throughout the descent and let them know when you break out.

6) Consider the BRS, if so equipped.  If at any point the situation deteriorates beyond your ability to effectively deal with it, or control is lost or in question during the descent, it's probably time to ride the silk elevator.  This is a much safer option that continuing to fly the airplane beyond your capabilities.  Think about this sooner rather than later, it is possible to wait too long and have the airplane in a situation beyond the BRS deployment envelope.  This has happened to at least one Cirrus, leading to fatalities.  The BRS should be on your mind from the start of the situation unfolding, and you should constantly be evaluating whether the time is right for deployment.  The moment the BRS becomes the smartest, safest option to walk away, use it.

Anyway, those are my thoughts...I'm sure others have differing opinions on this.  I'm happy to hear them and always looking to refine my procedures.

[Tom Baker]

Also file a NASA form.

[okent]

Just to be clear, whether private pilot or sport pilot, it's never OK to fly above a cloud layer without visual reference to the ground right?

[Tom Baker]

Sport pilot is required to have a visual refence, private pilot simple must meet cloud and visibility requirements. Of course for the private pilot, if you are not instrument rated you better have a plan to get back down while staying VFR.

[MEH]

And the Private, Commercial, or ATP pilots exercising privileges of a Sport Pilot (flying with a driver's license medical) must also maintain visual reference.

[AGLyme]

Excellent primer Andy.  
 

Re your para #4, the modern FD (Dynon HDX) avionics allow for (near) current WX reports for airport reporting stations (ahead, behind, in all directions), and, ForeFlight on an iPad is helpful in that regard as well.  In my epic over the top adventure on my S Illinois to CT trip this past Summer, I was unlucky and fortunate at the same time.  The unlucky part was that I had multiple scattered layers below me and taken together, I couldn’t see the ground, except in spotty areas near class C’s... all airports underneath me reported VFR however.  The lucky part was that it was warm, no thunderstorm activity, and I was loaded to the gills in technology and gas.  
 

FF was super helpful as well.  There were 3 times along the route that I could see ground and I could have needled my way down through the layers but I determined that, given my gas situation, the forecasted WX along the route and the flight conditions where I was (nuthin’ but blue sky above + a 4-5 knots tailwind), I would just keep trucking.  There was also the risk that if I did descend through the layers that I would break the VFR cloud rules.  I remember at the time that I wasn’t worried about the spacing, I was more concerned about unseen traffic.  The times that I could see ground were near Class C’s.  Eventually the multiple “scattered”  layers turned into one, and then zero clouds... I landed for a precautionary fuel stop in Eastern PA.  I still had enough gas and reserves to have not landed.
 

To your point about Autopilot, it is a great safety tool.  I didn’t touch the stick during the trip.  
 

The major takeaway for me is that in spite of lots of time that morning studying weather for the trip, I didn’t realize that multiple layers could mean zero ground visibility.  I don’t mind sharing my foibles here on this forum.  I believe in life and flying it is how we learn.  
 

PS, I hold a Private Pilot cert with a Class 3 medical.

[johnnyjr]

AG thanks for sharing you follow up, I remember your post about the adventure you had.  I've done the same here is CA.  During this time of year we can wake up to clear skies along the coast and slightly inland with a solid fog layer down the entire central valley (we are separated by the mountains running north to south).  Regardless of the planning we do it's always interesting to see what plays out in reality.  I've done a few trips to Southern California that had me second guessing my decision, even with all the tech possible in the cockpit.  All turned out well, we need to trust and verify our information.  I trust the tech we use, but always use Flight Following and ask ATC for current weather confirmation/PIREPS.  

I had one trip recently were I left home to blue skiess in the bay area.  Entered the central valley to solid blanket of fog below and blue sky above.  2 hours in this condition gets ones mind thinking.  I was worried, but at the same time settled by the constant weather check on Foreflight and with ATC.  Although this flight didn't end in Los Angelas due to the marine layer butting up against the mountains where I would normally decent below and into LA.  It ended close enough for me to rent a car and finish my trip with a short drive.

Moral of the short story...

1 - Trust your data

2 - Verify your data

3 - Know that a plan is nothing more than a plan and always subject to change pending real world condition. 

4 - Always have a back up plan and be ready to use it

[AGLyme]

Good story and conclusions. Thanks for posting 

[okent]

I guess my question was to clarify that as a private pilot flying VFR we're not allowed to go VFR on top.  Must always fly with visual reference to the ground plus the clear of clouds rule.

I think VFR on top in Canada is allowed but I thought we couldn't do this in the USA.

[Ed Cesnalis]

10 minutes ago, okent said:

I guess my question was to clarify that as a private pilot flying VFR we're not allowed to go VFR on top.  Must always fly with visual reference to the ground plus the clear of clouds rule.

I think VFR on top in Canada is allowed but I thought we couldn't do this in the USA.

VFR on top is an IFR clearance but not what we are talking about here.  Both are true, VFR pilot isn't allowed to fly an IFR 'VFR on top' clearance.  

VFR pilot can fly VFR over the top.

[AGLyme]

FF communicates  “maintain VFR”... Ed is correct.

[okent]

So a VFR pilot can fly OVER cloud cover without visual reference to the ground but must land VFR with visual reference with the ground(maintain distance from clouds)

[Ed Cesnalis]

14 minutes ago, okent said:

So a VFR pilot can fly OVER cloud cover without visual reference to the ground but must land VFR with visual reference with the ground(maintain distance from clouds)

Yes, unless the VFR pilot is exercising only sport pilot privileges.