Annual condition inspection issue

[Jim Meade]

Tom,

I think there are several philosophies on what an aviation mechanic does.  One is that the mechanic takes over the airplane and goes through it from birth till now.  If he sees something he believes is wrong he fixed it and bills the owner. 

Another is that if the mechanic is tasked to change a tire, his duty is limited to changing tires.  If he sees a broken exhaust manifold, he has no right or responsibility to do anything with it except notify the operator or owner.

 

[Jim Meade]

6 hours ago, Warmi said:

You missed the point but whatever ....

I don't think my post warranted this dismissive  comment.  Do me the courtesy of explaining why a businesslike arrangement with your mechanic is not desirable.  There is a considerable literature in aviation that recommends strongly against giving a mechanic you original log books - this is not some idea I dreamed up on my own.  It is held by respected advisors in the maintenance field.

[Warmi]

10 minutes ago, Jim Meade said:

I don't think my post warranted this dismissive  comment.  Do me the courtesy of explaining why a businesslike arrangement with your mechanic is not desirable.  There is a considerable literature in aviation that recommends strongly against giving a mechanic you original log books - this is not some idea I dreamed up on my own.  It is held by respected advisors in the maintenance field.

The point is not that I want to have some kind of non -business relationship with a mechanic but rather that if I am dealing with a mechanic that engages into what is effectively blackmail , I would rather do my research before I give him my business and then take my business somewhere else where I don’t have to worry about protecting my log books etc ..

 

[Roger Lee]

I'm friends with all my clients and treat their plane as if it was my own. I go out of my way to make them feel safe and in a friendly environment.

[Warmi]

4 minutes ago, Roger Lee said:

I'm friends with all my clients and treat their plane as if it was my own. I go out of my way to make them feel safe and in a friendly environment.

Exactly... doesn’t have to be a friend but at a minimum I don’t want to have an adversarial relationship with my mechanic where I have to watch the proverbial back ...

My original mechanic was the same ultralight guy that Tom described in his post ... after having my carb fuel line come loose during a flight ( related to 5 year rubber replacement ) and a few other mechanic induced failures ( including a quick oil release valve that was installed with not enough clearance and ended up cracking the oil tank hex screw ) I had enough and went with these guys https://www.fly-aerosport.com/bushcat-light-sport 

 

[GlennM]

If the last condition inspection was signed off in April last year, then you are ok to fly to the end of the month.   I would fly it to a mechanic that has the FD training or experience, if I could.  If not, maybe a ferry permit to get it to someone suggested here.   I have had mechanics travel to my airport to fix things that I did not feel comfortable flying with.  Luckily,  they were only a 2.5 hour drive away.

[Tom Baker]

4 hours ago, Jim Meade said:

Tom,

I think there are several philosophies on what an aviation mechanic does.  One is that the mechanic takes over the airplane and goes through it from birth till now.  If he sees something he believes is wrong he fixed it and bills the owner. 

Another is that if the mechanic is tasked to change a tire, his duty is limited to changing tires.  If he sees a broken exhaust manifold, he has no right or responsibility to do anything with it except notify the operator or owner.

 

Jim, if it is the first time working on the airplane I want to look through the records to verify thay SD's and or AD's have been complied with. Sometimes I even look the airplane over to verify that even if it was logged as complied with that it has actually been done. As far as what work I perform my number one thing in my book is if it is safe. The new Piper AD requires inspecting the logbooks from birth to the present.

[Jim Meade]

I understand your perspective.  I think this forum is a rather specialized group where many owners are not widely experienced and many have personal relationships with rather specialized mechanics.  The owners may have considerable faith in their mechanic.  Other pilots have different perspectives than most on this site.

I'm not going to continue to press the point of providing copies of logs as necessary, but will say this.  The mechanic has the logs and has a fire.  His wife decides to leave him and knows that the logs provide a hold on him.  The rats start eating them.  He dies and the heirs have no clue or interest in log books so don't safeguard them.   Does anyone really think that none of this ever happens?

The solution is to provide the mechanic with an adequate copy of the logs and retain the originals.  In all those cases above you get in your airplane right away and drive off.  I do not understand why that is not acceptable to any mechanic.  Most of us know that when selling the airplane the prospective buyer is going to want to see the logs and none of us are going to allow them out of our sight so we make copies.  Just start now instead of waiting till you sell.

 

[Runtoeat]

I started separate digital log books for AF, Engine and Propellor about 6 years ago.  I have the hard copy log books and I scan newly created pages as work is done on my CT.  The new scanned page(s} is inserted digitally in to a master PDF file that is the digital log book.  I can provide my complete log books, in digital form, to any person who might request seeing my logs.  I also keep a running detailed digital Excel sheet of all SB's for my particular CTSW aircraft.  At annual condition time, I provide my mechanic with this sheet, in digital form, so he can see a history of all SB's and SI's or notices of actions which the manufacturer requires for AF, Engine and Propellor. 

[rickysmith]

15 hours ago, GlennM said:

If the last condition inspection was signed off in April last year, then you are ok to fly to the end of the month.   I would fly it to a mechanic that has the FD training or experience, if I could.  If not, maybe a ferry permit to get it to someone suggested here.   I have had mechanics travel to my airport to fix things that I did not feel comfortable flying with.  Luckily,  they were only a 2.5 hour drive away.

The last inspection was signed off in March. It looks like I will need to get a ferry permit once I locate a mechanic to fly it to. I'm still holding out hope flight design will contact my mechanic back and they work out something simple for him to get the training to do the wing inspection. As a mechanic I'm sure he felt frustrated to attempt to contact flight design and not receive a reply. 

[Tom Baker]

3 hours ago, rickysmith said:

The last inspection was signed off in March. It looks like I will need to get a ferry permit once I locate a mechanic to fly it to. I'm still holding out hope flight design will contact my mechanic back and they work out something simple for him to get the training to do the wing inspection. As a mechanic I'm sure he felt frustrated to attempt to contact flight design and not receive a reply. 

You need to realize that Flight Design USA is a small operation, and they were all at Sun 'n Fun last week. I would suggest calling again tomorrow or Wednesday.

A quick question, has the mechanic ever pulled the wings on any aircraft previously?

[Tom Baker]

Ricky, have your mechanic take a look at this legal ruling.   https://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/headquarters_offices/agc/practice_areas/regulations/interpretations/Data/interps/2012/Carpenter - (2012) Legal Interpretation.pdf

It basically says the manufacture can not impose requirements beyond those in the regulations. The relevant regulation is CFR 65.81, (a). Invite the mechanic from Iowa flight training over to observe the mechanic removing, inspecting, and reinstalling the wings. This complies with the requirements of 65.81, and should also satisfy the non binding requirement from the MM. Also if they have removed and reinstalled wings on any aircraft they have met the requirements of 61.81, but I would suggest at least talking with someone who has performed a wing removal on a CT before. I would be happy to speak with them if you would like.

 

[andyb]

23 hours ago, Jim Meade said:

I don't think my post warranted this dismissive  comment.  Do me the courtesy of explaining why a businesslike arrangement with your mechanic is not desirable.  There is a considerable literature in aviation that recommends strongly against giving a mechanic you original log books - this is not some idea I dreamed up on my own.  It is held by respected advisors in the maintenance field.

I also felt my post below didn't warrant a dismissive comment...

[Roger Lee]

"he mechanic has the logs and has a fire.  His wife decides to leave him and knows that the logs provide a hold on him.  The rats start eating them.  He dies and the heirs have no clue or interest in log books so don't safeguard them.   Does anyone really think that none of this ever happens?"

 

This is why I have all the records of everything in two separate databases on a computers. No matter what happens to any logbook I have a complete file on all my clients.

 

p.s.

You left out if the dog eats them. This really happened and I had all the documents ready to go.

[Jim Meade]

Well, Andy, I didn't dismiss you, I dismissed myself.  We had discussed the issue several times and I concluded I had nothing further to contribute so chose to exit the discussion.

[Jim Meade]

Tom, how does a Repairman Light Sport Aircraft Maintenance Airplane who has been trained and done the wing removal and reinstallation provide the sign-off of supervision for a mechanic who is in training and actually bending the wrenches?  Does the supervisor sign some kind of training document or does he sign off on the actual work, or what?

[Tom Baker]

43 minutes ago, Jim Meade said:

Tom, how does a Repairman Light Sport Aircraft Maintenance Airplane who has been trained and done the wing removal and reinstallation provide the sign-off of supervision for a mechanic who is in training and actually bending the wrenches?  Does the supervisor sign some kind of training document or does he sign off on the actual work, or what?

Actually a LSRM can't supervise someone else performing the procedure, but a A&P can. There is no requirement to have the procedure logged or endorsed, but it is not a bad idea. 

[Roger Lee]

I'm a major proponent for good logbook documentation. 30 years in the medical field and spending lots of time in court educates you to many myths that A&P's have about legal issues and their responsibility. I listened to the lawyers in the first three weeks of medical school. I never got burned in court, but I saw many a cop, fireman, Dr., nurse and the like get burned to the ground and then either get suspended or fired. Most stemmed from poor documentation and of course some from neglect. 

So I want to see the logbooks and make sure when I put an entry in it's 100%.

LSRM-A's can't supervise anyone, but an owner can help do the things he was already legal to do under the FAR's as the owner. That said I've taught many an A&P. I'm an instructor for Rotax and hold classes at my field. I have newbies and A&P's attend and unlike other similar classes in the US we take a Rotax maint. checklist and go line by line and everyone one turns wrenches and is involved. This way they all get to ask on the spot questions and take notes during an annual. Didn't get to have any classes last year.

 

[FlyingMonkey]

You'd be proud of me Roger...I just finished my annual and the logbook entry is 4-5 pages of 8pt font text.

[Roger Lee]

11 hours ago, FlyingMonkey said:

You'd be proud of me Roger...I just finished my annual and the logbook entry is 4-5 pages of 8pt font text.

 Sounds good. 

I did one last week that was 4 pages #9 font. A two pager today.