Gates Barricade standard carb fuel hose

[Jim Meade]

8 hours ago, Roger Lee said:

I have talked with several factories over the years about buying parts locally and or not from them. Most didn't care.

That's my point. 5/16" or 7.5 mm. Mfg's don't really care. Look at the parts you buy from me. The original door lift struts were only 190 psi and I got them to 220. The original red polyurethane dampeners were 20mm wide and now 25mm.

What factory and what product?  What manufacturer - the hose manufacturer?  I don't suppose the hose manufacture does care. 

We see too much selective discussion of what takes an LOA and what does not.  I believe many people "don't care" but if the issue is only some rules really apply, then how does the forum reader know which rules?  So he changes his SL40 out for an SL30 - hey! what difference does it make?  We use Ace Hardware for nuts and bolts.  We use non-OEM, off-size hose because it's cheaper and "close enough".  What's the big deal?  (asked with sarcasm in case it didn't come through).

 

 

[Roger Lee]

Sometimes I can give a source and sometimes I was told in confidentiality and then sometimes I just don't remember a specific name especially when it was research a while ago. I do a lot of research so that may make it a lot of people. Even the higher ups in FAA can't agree and sometimes the Mfg. doesn't agree with the FAA. For me many times it's all about doing the right thing and a cut above for litigation.

 

Get the FSDO's and the FAA in OK, to agree first. I've talked to the FAA in OK a few times and knew more than they did and then they'd ask why I even called and I told them to see if they were on the same page. They aren't many times especially on LSA. FSDO's are even worse. When I did a lot of my research this was the biggest problem. Why do you think so many things with the FAA had to go to legal department.

[Madhatter]

I have talked to a number of senior FAA individuals I have known for about 20 yrs and was privately told they are not interested in LSA. However if you have an incident due to being stupid about something,  they will get interested. 

[Tom Baker]

9 hours ago, Roger Lee said:

I have talked with several factories over the years about buying parts locally and or not from them. Most didn't care.

That's my point. 5/16" or 7.5 mm. Mfg's don't really care. Look at the parts you buy from me. The original door lift struts were only 190 psi and I got them to 220. The original red polyurethane dampeners were 20mm wide and now 25mm.

Roger, door lift struts that are a little longer or stronger is not an issue. Having slightly larger diameter suspension dampers is not a safety issue, in fact Flight design uses the larger dampers for the CTLS. My issue with the hose that you say .4 mm is insignificant is that there are some fittings in a CTSW that if inserted in the hose with just some slight shaking will fall out because they are to loose is a safety issue. I know the you can tighten the clamp down to stop the fuel from leaking, but the hose should seal on the fitting without a clamp. BTW you can not shake the fittings out of the 7.5 mm hose. There are as many as 13 places about half of the fuel fittings on a CTSW where the 5/16" hose is too loose for the fitting in my opinion. 

[Warmi]

6 hours ago, Madhatter said:

I have talked to a number of senior FAA individuals I have known for about 20 yrs and was privately told they are not interested in LSA. However if you have an incident due to being stupid about something,  they will get interested. 

That’s a blessing.

[Roger Lee]

Tom:

"My issue with the hose that you say .4 mm is insignificant is that there are some fittings in a CTSW that if inserted in the hose with just some slight shaking will fall out because they are to loose is a safety issue. I know the you can tighten the clamp down to stop the fuel from leaking, but the hose should seal on the fitting without a clamp. "

So what's the difference from FD with the hose and fitting on the 912iS engine. The hose out of the fuel filter to the first 90 degree fitting on the fuel rail. The hose is way too big. It's like putting a 5/16" on a 1/4" fitting and that's from the factory. The only way they make that work is to use a Band-It clamp and tighten it way down.

 

My 5/16" is better than the 7.5mm on the barbed fittings because mine isn't fuel injection hose (stiff with no give) and it slides over the barbed fittings like it should without damaging the inner liner. You said in a post above that sometimes their hose was a little tight over the fitting. That says it all. FD in Europe uses 7.5mm because that's what they have. Metric. 

The hose fittings you mentioned above being too loose on the fittings. So is the 7.5mm. FD made those fittings too small too. The fittings stainless tubing on the SW's are only 1/8" ID. They slide off too without a good clamping down. Rotax wants 5/16 minimum for a supply to the fuel pump. You can't complain about one thing and not say the same thing about everything else.

The door struts and dampeners aren't made by or for FD, but you still use them. Technically you should only use theirs. 

You're targeting one little thing and letting everything else slide, plus the 5/16" is a better fit over the barbed fitting compared to the 7.5mm.

You buy Odyssey batteries. Why not Hawker batteries like FD used. Just like 7.5mm hose that's what they used in Europe,

We'll just have to agree to disagree on this one.

 

[Jim Meade]

It's black and white.  There are standards and protocols and ways to deal with needs for exceptions in maintaining SLSA.  The alternative is ELSA with more flexibility.

Trying to meet the letter of the law for SLSA without using SLSA protocols finds us justifying, explaining, excusing, rationalizing and so forth but still wrong.

We set ourselves up to be the authority when we do that.  When others look to us for guidance or perspective and we offer non-SLSA alternatives to an SLSA issue, we support others breaking the rules.

Many find the need to choose between SLSA and ELSA conflicting.   They want to have their SLSA cake and eat it with an ELSA fork.

The Part 91 tradition of aircraft maintenance is keep it flying and minimal expense.  A&Ps would apply their rationale to the fitness of various materials and procedures.  "Oh, that hose will last till next annual".  There is tremendous pressure for SLSA owners to find mechanics who will apply that same "let it slip by" standard but the rules are different.  Hence the conflict.

Of course this is all very easy to say.  It is also very easy to do.  Except when we don't like it.

 

 

 

 

 

[Tom Baker]

10 hours ago, Roger Lee said:

So what's the difference from FD with the hose and fitting on the 912iS engine. The hose out of the fuel filter to the first 90 degree fitting on the fuel rail. The hose is way too big. It's like putting a 5/16" on a 1/4" fitting and that's from the factory. The only way they make that work is to use a Band-It clamp and tighten it way down.

Roger,

I've only done one hose change on CTLSi. At the time I ask you and you had not performed one yet. It has been a few years now, and I don't remember it being too loose. I do remember checking it after the caution about it coming out, and it still seemed tight.

10 hours ago, Roger Lee said:

My 5/16" is better than the 7.5mm on the barbed fittings because mine isn't fuel injection hose (stiff with no give) and it slides over the barbed fittings like it should without damaging the inner liner. You said in a post above that sometimes their hose was a little tight over the fitting. That says it all. FD in Europe uses 7.5mm because that's what they have. Metric. 

The Gates fuel injection hose is very stiff. One of the 7.5 mm hoses I tried was also very stiff. I have used at least 3 different 7.5 mm fuel injection hoses that stretched as well as the Gates carb hose. BTW the 5/16" hose is to tight over the same fittings, so it is a wash in my mind.

 

10 hours ago, Roger Lee said:

he hose fittings you mentioned above being too loose on the fittings. So is the 7.5mm. FD made those fittings too small too. The fittings stainless tubing on the SW's are only 1/8" ID. They slide off too without a good clamping down. Rotax wants 5/16 minimum for a supply to the fuel pump. You can't complain about one thing and not say the same thing about everything else.

I call BS I have a stainless "T" fitting from Flight Design right here, the ID measures .235. I also happen to have a hose fitting for a Rotax fuel pump inlet, and it measures .218 ID. They may call for a 5-16" hose, but the ID of the fittings will always be less than 5/16". With the 7.5 mm hose you can slide it on the fitting, and it doesn't fall out like it does with the 5/16" hose.

 

10 hours ago, Roger Lee said:

The door struts and dampeners aren't made by or for FD, but you still use them. Technically you should only use theirs. 

I agree somewhat, but in the case of the door struts and dampers it is not a safety issue. My bottom line is SAFETY comes first.

 

10 hours ago, Roger Lee said:

You're targeting one little thing and letting everything else slide, plus the 5/16" is a better fit over the barbed fitting compared to the 7.5mm.

When given the choice about the hose being too tight on 4 fittings or being too loose on 11 fittings, I am going to choose having it too tight on the four fittings. I would much rather have the hose be to tight than risk a fuel leak from being too loose.

 

10 hours ago, Roger Lee said:

You buy Odyssey batteries. Why not Hawker batteries like FD used. Just like 7.5mm hose that's what they used in Europe,

Because there is a Flight Design approval for the Odyssey battery, unlike the 5/16" fuel hose.

[Warmi]

2 hours ago, Jim Meade said:

It's black and white.  There are standards and protocols and ways to deal with needs for exceptions in maintaining SLSA.  The alternative is ELSA with more flexibility.

Trying to meet the letter of the law for SLSA without using SLSA protocols finds us justifying, explaining, excusing, rationalizing and so forth but still wrong.

We set ourselves up to be the authority when we do that.  When others look to us for guidance or perspective and we offer non-SLSA alternatives to an SLSA issue, we support others breaking the rules.

Many find the need to choose between SLSA and ELSA conflicting.   They want to have their SLSA cake and eat it with an ELSA fork.

The Part 91 tradition of aircraft maintenance is keep it flying and minimal expense.  A&Ps would apply their rationale to the fitness of various materials and procedures.  "Oh, that hose will last till next annual".  There is tremendous pressure for SLSA owners to find mechanics who will apply that same "let it slip by" standard but the rules are different.  Hence the conflict.

Of course this is all very easy to say.  It is also very easy to do.  Except when we don't like it.

Oh it is never black and white , as owners we do make choices all the time. For instance the principle I follow is  something like .. , if this is not a structural item and does not affect safety in any way , directly or indirectly  -  I won't bother with LOA or any of that non-sense just to comply with some rules.

What I am talking about here items like iPad mounts or similar minor items in the cabin - if I want to drill my panel and permanently install a mount, I will do so and not worry about wasting time on LOA even though this is a permanent modification and theoretically I need their approval for that.

On the other hand, I won't even think about substituting an oil filter or anything that I don't understand potential implications of changing because , well, because I do fly this plane and it is my ass on the line and there is nobody out there who is more invested in preserving safety of my "behind" than me.

 

 

[Jim Meade]

If one doesn't agree with the rules, one can go ELSA as I and many other have.

[Warmi]

2 hours ago, Jim Meade said:

If one doesn't agree with the rules, one can go ELSA as I and many other have.

I certainly will if I ever decide to install an aftermarket fuel injection kit or something along these lines .. and I will seek LOA if I decide to install custom avionics and such but I did spend $100k on the plane and I feel I don’t need anybody’s permission to make minor cosmetic changes.

[Roger Lee]

5 hours ago, Jim Meade said:

If one doesn't agree with the rules, one can go ELSA as I and many other have.

This depends on the DAR that issues your new operating limitations. Some people have found out (the hard way) that DAR's have some common language, but have the leeway to add or subtract others things. The two most common ones added is,

"You must follow all aircraft Mfg's time limited parts schedule" and "any changes to the aircraft from the Mfg's specs must be approved by a FSDO". There are people here that have had that issue.

[Roger Lee]

Tom,

"BTW the 5/16" hose is to tight over the same fittings, " This is why I don't use FI hose. It has no give and they all scrape the inner liner. Not the 5/16" I use. It isn't the FI hose , but what some call vapor recovery hose or carburetion hose. The FI is rated at 100 psi where the other is rated at 50 psi. More than enough for our 3.5 - 6 psi pressure.

Door struts and front suspension dampeners.

"I agree somewhat, but in the case of the door struts and dampers it is not a safety issue." It could be a flight safety issue with the front dampeners if they failed and someone lost control during takeoff or landing.

The Flight Design Tee fitting is way too  small OD for the 5/6" or 7.5MM hose. It slides right on or off and doesn't match your pull test. It must be clamped more than a standard 5/16" barbed fitting on the CT. I've seen then pull off after clamping. This is why I use one size smaller Oetiker clamp on the stainless fittings like the Tee that goes through the firewall. I've seen a couple leak too because they weren't clamped all the way down. 

Too tight a hose and clamp WILL cut into the inner liner and cause rubber to float downstream. It can cause and has many times engine rpm loss. This happens for three reasons. Poor sterile technique when installing the hose. Too tight a hose that scrapes the inner liner that causes rubber to float downstream or clamps too tight that cuts into the inner liner which causes floaters to go downstream and this issues may cause hose failure later on where the hose is clamped. I've only seen this a couple of times, but I have seen tons of floaters and had calls from all over the world on what caused it. I get lots of Rotax tech calls from all over the world so I get to hear many hundreds of issues and not just from the CT community.

This is why you'll see my published articles on the Rotax Owner forum.

They didn't approve the Odyssey battery back years ago,. They used the hawker. I got that LOA for the Odyssey. They didn't even know it existed. They were going to have the Hawkers sent from Europe. I research everything about rules and parts and try to make things clearer or get it done a better way. 

On the Sport Cruiser I throw away all their TEE fittings and replace them Now those are a danger.

[BravoFoxtrot]

What is different on the TEE fitting used on the Sport Cruiser? What do you replace it with?

[Roger Lee]

The brass fittings on a Sport Cruiser are about 3/8" - 7/16" long and no barb just a very tiny rise at the end. If the clamps isn't right at the end of the hose you start to clamp off the fitting and just get hose. There is almost no wiggle room for mistakes. They also don't use fire sleeve on hoses. It may have changed some in later newer models. I put better longer fittings on everything and put all the oil and fuel hose in fire sleeve. I use Oetiker clamps on the hose and Band-It clamps on the fire sleeve. I'm starting to see some people using heat shrink on the fire sleeve. Not an ASTM standard.

[BravoFoxtrot]

Thanks. I don't care for the barbed fittings on the CT, but at least they aren't that bad!

[Jim Meade]

17 hours ago, Warmi said:

I certainly will if I ever decide to install an aftermarket fuel injection kit or something along these lines .. and I will seek LOA if I decide to install custom avionics and such but I did spend $100k on the plane and I feel I don’t need anybody’s permission to make minor cosmetic changes.

When you sell your plane, will you advertise it or allow it to be understood as SLSA?  Do you log the non-OEM equipment in the appropriate logs?  Or is it caveat emptor?

[Roger Lee]

1 hour ago, BravoFoxtrot said:

Thanks. I don't care for the barbed fittings on the CT, but at least they aren't that bad!

When used properly there is no big deal. The main issues is over clamping. When I did a research project many years ago on them I'd clamp the fittings in a vise and try different clamps and hoses. I'd pull them to the point the hose tore. I used different aircraft fittings including FD's stainless fittings. 

[Jim Meade]

5 minutes ago, Roger Lee said:

When used properly there is no big deal. The main issues is over clamping. When I did a research project many years ago on them I'd clamp the fittings in a vise and try different clamps and hoses. I'd pull them to the point the hose tore. I used different aircraft fittings including FD's stainless fittings. 

It sounds like you did enough research to support an LOA.  Did you apply for one and if so what was the result?

[Warmi]

1 hour ago, Jim Meade said:

When you sell your plane, will you advertise it or allow it to be understood as SLSA?  Do you log the non-OEM equipment in the appropriate logs?  Or is it caveat emptor?

I will advertise it as SLSA and if the new owner wants things I have added ( 2 so far )  like my iPad mount or CO detector mount removed, I will remove them (  literally 2 minutes )

Frankly, in my case I presume iPad mounts are allowed since the various tables are listed in the MEL but it does not specifically say "Ram Mount" so who knows and again , did not want to waste my time contacting Europe and determining trivialities like that.

[procharger]

I like to put some heat on a hose when I remove or install it, heat gun relaxes the rubber

a little makes it much easier to deal with . I am replacing fuel lines this week.

[Tom Baker]

For removal I slit the hose, for installation I use a little silicone spray. I don't like having the hot coil from the heat gun around the fuel.

[Tom Baker]

Just completed a wing inspection today. When I went to pull the fuel hose loose, it came off real easy. Got to looking, and it was Gates 5/16" hose. I decided to change it out for 7.5MM hose. I'm glad I did, because the forward end of the hose on one side was leaking.