914 in the CTLS

[Skunkworks85]

https://www.flyer.co.uk/flight-design-unveils-turbocharged-ctls-rocketship/?fbclid=IwAR2w0tLPH4AiADTX0dGtv7QtaXMRBw_8klXFxbqf8YTr3ABQTi3zzDRmcnc

 

[GrassStripFlyBoy]

Fancy, looks pretty too.  The points about high altitude and hot climates makes sense, and out of US perhaps higher gross weights, all that might point to the 914 being a good option.  For us flat landers close to sea level, I keep coming back to a constant speed prop is top of the wish list.  Then maybe fuel injection.  Turbo does not make any sense for my flying / needs.

[Skunkworks85]

3 hours ago, GrassStripFlyBoy said:

Fancy, looks pretty too.  The points about high altitude and hot climates makes sense, and out of US perhaps higher gross weights, all that might point to the 914 being a good option.  For us flat landers close to sea level, I keep coming back to a constant speed prop is top of the wish list.  Then maybe fuel injection.  Turbo does not make any sense for my flying / needs.

I think putting one of these in an sw would be killer. I know FD did sell a few.  But they are rare. I agree with the cs prop. We will see what happens with the rule changes.

[FlyingMonkey]

Personally, other than for high altitude operation, I'd prefer a 115hp "big bore" kit from Edge or Zipper.  I know a couple of guys with the 914 and they find them a bit tempermental.

[ct9000]

Temperamental, never heard of that. Could you please elaborate?.914 has a reputation for being as smooth as you can get. My 914 is pretty good with the only downside being a slightly higher fuel burn at lower levels offset by the fact that you are not low for very long. 

[Madhatter]

I know someone who had a 914 and a constant speed prop installed on a CT. I watched the installation, it had some challenges but it worked. Not legal for sure. The guy had a lot of money so I guess he can make things happen. Never heard anything more on it. The installer agreed to do but not sign any logbooks. I

[ct9000]

21 minutes ago, Madhatter said:

I know someone who had a 914 and a constant speed prop installed on a CT. I watched the installation, it had some challenges but it worked. Not legal for sure. The guy had a lot of money so I guess he can make things happen. Never heard anything more on it. The installer agreed to do but not sign any logbooks. I

My CTLS is factory stock standard with 914 and c/s prop so it is legal.

[Madhatter]

Not in the USA

[Tom Baker]

1 hour ago, Madhatter said:

I know someone who had a 914 and a constant speed prop installed on a CT. I watched the installation, it had some challenges but it worked. Not legal for sure. The guy had a lot of money so I guess he can make things happen. Never heard anything more on it. The installer agreed to do but not sign any logbooks. I

Is that the one that was done down south? If so unfortunately it and the pilot are no longer with us.

[ct9000]

1 hour ago, Madhatter said:

Not in the USA

I grant you the point. It is not legal because of 1/ the illegal modification not factory sanctioned. 2/ CS prop against rules. I should have been more specific in my reply. 

[Madhatter]

It was down south

[Tom Baker]

That was one of the few new airplanes I sold. I took his old CTSW in on trade, sold it, bought it back and sold it again. After it was sold again it was damaged in a landing accident by a new owner who didn't get any training.

http://www.kathrynsreport.com/2020/06/flight-design-ctls-n257v-fatal-accident.html

[Warmi]

28 minutes ago, Tom Baker said:

That was one of the few new airplanes I sold. I took his old CTSW in on trade, sold it, bought it back and sold it again. After it was sold again it was damaged in a landing accident by a new owner who didn't get any training.

http://www.kathrynsreport.com/2020/06/flight-design-ctls-n257v-fatal-accident.html

I knew this gentlemen .. I believe he had after market modifications to the engine ( not sure from where ) and I have seen him service his plane at Kankakee at that mechanic that I have discussed before and ultimately stopped going to ... have no idea if any of that is related to his accident.

[FlyingMonkey]

12 hours ago, ct9000 said:

Temperamental, never heard of that. Could you please elaborate?.914 has a reputation for being as smooth as you can get. My 914 is pretty good with the only downside being a slightly higher fuel burn at lower levels offset by the fact that you are not low for very long. 

I don't know anything more, just what owners mentioned to me in passing.  Could be wrong or owners who did not understand their engines well.

[ct9000]

15 hours ago, FlyingMonkey said:

I don't know anything more, just what owners mentioned to me in passing.  Could be wrong or owners who did not understand their engines well.

Thanks for the response Andy. There are not a lot of 914's compared to 912's, probably because they are not exactly cheap. Having said that 914 has a reputation as being as bullet proof as a 912. I have only done a couple of hundred hours so far on mine, would I make the same decision to spend the extra money again?  Hell yeah !!!.

[FlyingMonkey]

8 hours ago, ct9000 said:

Thanks for the response Andy. There are not a lot of 914's compared to 912's, probably because they are not exactly cheap. Having said that 914 has a reputation as being as bullet proof as a 912. I have only done a couple of hundred hours so far on mine, would I make the same decision to spend the extra money again?  Hell yeah !!!.

Good to know!  How does the turbo work?  Is it on all the time providing power, normalized to sea level pressures, or only at WOT?

IIRC one of the owners I talked to mentioned that "you can only use the turbo for five minutes at a time", which indicates that it's only used at WOT and may have a 5min limit just like running the engine above 5500rpm.  But again, that could be wrong and the pilot I'm referencing didn't seem like a real technical sort.

[Ed Cesnalis]

45 minutes ago, FlyingMonkey said:

Good to know!  How does the turbo work?  Is it on all the time providing power, normalized to sea level pressures, or only at WOT?

IIRC one of the owners I talked to mentioned that "you can only use the turbo for five minutes at a time", which indicates that it's only used at WOT and may have a 5min limit just like running the engine above 5500rpm.  But again, that could be wrong and the pilot I'm referencing didn't seem like a real technical sort.

Andy,

I think it is  a quite different animal at altitude.  Also huge difference if you can adjust prop pitch in flight.

Near the ground with pitch fixed you would exceed 5,500 in boost so 5 minutes.

At 12,000'  you can cruise with boost at less than 5,500 so unlimited.

 

[FlyingMonkey]

25 minutes ago, Ed Cesnalis said:

Andy,

I think it is  a quite different animal at altitude.  Also huge difference if you can adjust prop pitch in flight.

Near the ground with pitch fixed you would exceed 5,500 in boost so 5 minutes.

At 12,000'  you can cruise with boost at less than 5,500 so unlimited.

 

Thanks Ed.  That makes sense.  I have no doubt the turbo really makes the 914 awesome at higher elevations.  In flight prop adjustment would no doubt keep the RPM where it needs to be to stay in boost.  That would give fast cruise even at lower altitudes.

[ct9000]

My experience with the 914.   The rev limit of 5800  for five min. and 5500 continuous is the same as 912. the other limit is boost at about 40" for t/o and about 36" cruise. Yes it works best with a c/s prop but not allowed in the US. The turbo is there all the time you want to use it but is no more powerful in cruise at sea level but as you climb the better it gets. For example, my SW 912 at about 8000' could only get about 21" or 60% power at full throttle but the turbo will still give sea level power up to 15000' which is equivalent to having a 160hp engine at 8000' and more like 200hp at the levels that Ed used to fly at out of Mamouth. This thing is only a 80 hp 912 with forced induction so with the lower compression of the 80hp it is very smooth but will use slightly more fuel than a higher compression engine at lower levels at lower power settings. Turbo cool down is not an issue because you don't descend at high boost unless you want to rip the wings off so cool down on approach is sufficient. At low levels I usually cruise at low power using 4800 rpm at 29" which gives me about 105kt. for just drilling holes in the sky for local flights. If I am going some ware I will use 5200 at 32" which gives me 118kt. at low levels and more if I climb a bit. I am very hesitant to post this because some one will accuse me of bragging also I will not say the max speeds at 8500' and 9500' but suffice to say it is quick.    

[FlyingMonkey]

It ain't bragging if it's the truth!  Sounds like a sweet package.

[sandpiper]

ct9000 - you can't just leave us hanging like this! You gotta tell us what those top speeds are. Please. I am green with envy!

[ct9000]

5 hours ago, sandpiper said:

ct9000 - you can't just leave us hanging like this! You gotta tell us what those top speeds are. Please. I am green with envy!

The speeds I quoted above are TAS from the Dynon and my system is calibrated and tested by a certified shop. I normally don't push it but 130's is not hard at 8500 / 9500 using 5200 at 32"mp. If I go to max continuous 5500 at 36" I expect to see close enough to 140. Actual  results will vary of course depending in the density altitude at the time and remember the fuel burn at 5500 is a bit high, as most have worked out coming back 300 revs and loosing 7 or 8 kt. is a real sweet spot for lower fuel burn quieter smoother etc.

[Jim Meade]

These speeds are perfectly consistent with the book.  120Vh should work out to roughly 140 TAS at 8,000'.

[sandpiper]

Thanks ct9000. If my Dynon is correct, I get 117KTAS at 5200 and about 121KTAS at 5600. So, it looks like you get 20 knots over my CTSW with 912 ULS.

And, you probably can push 2000 fpm climb which would be double what I get at lower altitudes.

 

[ct9000]

56 minutes ago, sandpiper said:

Thanks ct9000. If my Dynon is correct, I get 117KTAS at 5200 and about 121KTAS at 5600. So, it looks like you get 20 knots over my CTSW with 912 ULS.

And, you probably can push 2000 fpm climb which would be double what I get at lower altitudes.

 

No I only get about 1200 fpm at max weight but still the same at 8000'. At lighter weight I see about 1500 fpm. Also I will not see 140 TAS cruise until about the 8500-9500 levels. One other point is if I am light I will only use reduced power for t/o and climb because the nose is too high and I cannot see so normal for me is about 1000-1200 fpm at 70kt. using 32"MP.