CT4ME Posted April 18, 2011 Report Share Posted April 18, 2011 Switch to high resolution (click where it says 360p - go to 1080p)... and then go full-screen, to see gauges better... nice landing! Tim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wlfpckrs Posted April 19, 2011 Report Share Posted April 19, 2011 Don't try this at home. Spin training is a good idea, too --- until you kill yourself doing it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bitten192 Posted April 19, 2011 Report Share Posted April 19, 2011 You should try this at home. Practice over your home airport. Shut it down about 6000 feet over your airport on a calm day. Learn how to do it before it happens when you don't expect it. Ernie CFI Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Meade Posted April 19, 2011 Report Share Posted April 19, 2011 Is a prop stopped the norm on the Rotax? No windmilling? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger Lee Posted April 19, 2011 Report Share Posted April 19, 2011 It will stop if you are slow enough. If you go back towards 100 it will windmill. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
S3flyer Posted April 19, 2011 Report Share Posted April 19, 2011 You should try this at home. Practice over your home airport. Shut it down about 6000 feet over your airport on a calm day. Learn how to do it before it happens when you don't expect it. Ernie CFI I had a friend and retired AF pilot pull the power on my Sting on short final once. Good learning experience that had very little risk. Airport grounds are well kept and have many places to land if the runways couldn't work. Can't argue that there is benefit to doing this exercise but it's an individual's decision if the benefit outweighs the risk. We all should be able to put it down safely but there's something unnerving about becoming a glider to test it out. Also, no guarantee that the engine will restart if you mess up your final approach. Here's where I'd probably practice using idle. Recently heard an interview with a retired FAA Safety inspector talking about the 'Impossible 180' (see other thread for local discussion). He told a story of multi-thousand hour pilot who lost one engine in a twin jump plane at 6000' feet over his home airport. He landed short of the runway with a very bad outcome. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FastEddieB Posted April 20, 2011 Report Share Posted April 20, 2011 He told a story of multi-thousand hour pilot who lost one engine in a twin jump plane at 6000' feet over his home airport. He landed short of the runway with a very bad outcome. As a tailwheel-competent instructor, I was sometime hired to ferry cropdusters. This photo was taken somewhere in Haiti on the way to S. America, IIRC: Once I was hired to fly a Cessna AgTruck or AgHusky from Nassau back to Opa Locka. Similar story: the fellow had waited until he was over Nassau to switch tanks. When the engine quit (some gasket goop clogging the injectors was the theory), he also came up short of the runway, damaging the landing gear. That said, I have never in over 4,000 hours of instructing intentionally killed an engine in flight, with the exception of feathering one engine in a twin. I think the risks, however small, outweigh the benefit. But That's Just Me!™ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wlfpckrs Posted April 21, 2011 Report Share Posted April 21, 2011 Have you seen this video of a deadstick takeoff and landing? Sorry, but I'm too chicken. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sandpiper Posted April 21, 2011 Report Share Posted April 21, 2011 You notice there are no "N" numbers or faces shown. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CT4ME Posted April 21, 2011 Author Report Share Posted April 21, 2011 OMG... crazy as a loon.... but not the only one - Google "mountain top landing"... plenty of loons out there! tim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Wheeler NW Aviation Posted April 27, 2011 Report Share Posted April 27, 2011 I had a friend and retired AF pilot pull the power on my Sting on short final once. Sounds like Bill C from LR AR. He did the same thing to me only on downwind. I was NOT amused. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wlfpckrs Posted April 28, 2011 Report Share Posted April 28, 2011 Unless he's your instructor, what the *$#& is someone doing, pulling the power on someone else's plane? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FlyingMonkey Posted July 8, 2012 Report Share Posted July 8, 2012 Unless he's your instructor, what the *$#& is someone doing, pulling the power on someone else's plane? That was my thought. Once safely on the ground a punch to the junk might be in order. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
knolde Posted July 15, 2012 Report Share Posted July 15, 2012 I just watched the video and I agree with "not me" comment. That is just stupid and someone that stupid should not be alowed to fly, he is dangerous. Very early in my training in an Aeronica 7AC my instructor pulled the power--it scared the heck out of me and as he refused to talk to me, I did manage to get the plane down without indident (sloppy but after 5 hours what can you reasonably expect). We got back and he asked me what I thought about that as realistic training--I found out how badly aknucle can hurt after hitting someone in the face. Again I say stupid stunt and if you want to impress a student don't give them the impression they are going to die! Sorry, but this one hits close to home, I love flying, I have been scared flying, but the incident of no power and a mute instructor still makes me angry. I apologize for the rant, See ya Ken Nolde, N850KN 500 hour of fun Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Meade Posted July 15, 2012 Report Share Posted July 15, 2012 You should try this at home. Practice over your home airport. Shut it down about 6000 feet over your airport on a calm day. Learn how to do it before it happens when you don't expect it. Ernie CFI I tried it and I agree. It's comforting to me to know for sure what the plane flies like without power. I agree with those who dislike an instructor doing something by surprise and without warning. I had that happen to me when an engine was pulled on a twin on take-off very early in MEL training. I just lifted up my hands and said, "your airplane". When we got down I made it clear to never do that again. On a check ride or if the situation is defined ahead of time, of course we should be prepared to deal with exigencies. We are particularly upset when the instructor has not taught us how to deal with the situation presented. That seems to me to be a breach of trust. I didn't see anything in the video that made me think the power shut off had not been pre-briefed. The pilot didn't seem disturbed. Did it bother anyone that the instructor was on the controls during part of the flight? I think we have a some pilots who are afraid of airplanes and afraid to operate anywhere outside a narrow performance envelope - much narrower than the plane is designed and proven to be able to handle. Why is this? Don't we practice enough? Don't we fly enough? Do we understand the aerodynamics of flight? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bitten192 Posted July 16, 2012 Report Share Posted July 16, 2012 A couple hours of instruction in a glider is also a great way to experience landing without power. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adam Posted July 21, 2012 Report Share Posted July 21, 2012 Here is another one... This one in a CT... There are many of these on YouTube. I asked and engaged a couple of the CFI's in conversation about the merits of actually turning off the engine in a training exercise. In essence, they are creating a real emergency rather than a training emergency. They defend the practice and apparently its commonplace in Europe. They point to Gliders and Glider Pilot training saying of course "every landing is an engine off landing". I gave them the good old USA thought process of keeping the engine on but at idle and if the student blows the landing the CFI has options to recover or go around. I guess in different parts of the world they just think differently! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doug G. Posted July 22, 2012 Report Share Posted July 22, 2012 I'm no glider pilot, but I think there are differences. A glider usually has speed brakes and is able to use brakes and flaps quickly without serious change in attitude...I think. I had to do this on a checkride with power at idle downwind abeam the end of the runway - my instructor never taught me this, or even slips. I agree it feels like a breach of trust. This is now on my list of practice maneuvers for my CTLS. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Meade Posted July 22, 2012 Report Share Posted July 22, 2012 In essence, they are creating a real emergency rather than a training emergency. Huh? Where did you get that idea? An emergency is situational dependent. If you are flying a light piston twin and have an engine failure, most would agree that is an emergency because the remaining engine may not allow you to fly much above 5,000 MSL. If you are flying a single engine airplane and the engine is not operating properly, you may well have an emergency. If the engine is running fine, you are on downwind abeam the numbers at the correct altitude, spacing, airspeed, configuration and at a field where there are no operations requiring you to have immediate power available, and you deliberately shut the engine off, what is the emergency? People use terms like "creating a real emergency" because the phrase has an immediate emotional punch that doesn't so much support an argument as it distracts from it. I am a glider pilots, and as far as gliders go, some gliders have spoilers, some have dive brakes, some have flaps. The Krosno I fly often has spoilers as does the 1-34 I flew a couple of weeks ago. My LP-49 has flaps that go to 90°. It also has retractable gear which can affect glide ratio. I don't know of any gliders that have both flaps and spoilers but I'm not saying there are none. One brings a glider in for a landing just like you a plane with the engine out - you judge the pattern and use your flaps or lift affecting devices and you slip. My personal opinion is that no one in an airplane should initiate any maneuver the rest of the occupants are not briefed on or ready for unless it is a common maneuver. I even tell people when I'm going to slip on approach so they understand that the maneuver is deliberate and controlled. Having said that, on a check ride one should be ready for whatever is in the book or has been agreed upon. I do not agree with DPE doing things not in the PTS. I think it's a good idea that pilots are trained in how to deal with loss of an engine. There are a number of ways to do that, maybe some better than others. While I think it's a good idea if a person has the right place and CFI to turn the engine off, I'm not saying everyone has that situation. But, I can't agree that those of us who do are causing a real emergency. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adam Posted July 22, 2012 Report Share Posted July 22, 2012 Perhaps Jim you'd like it better if I said... "potential emergency". The "potential" obviously is the student (who by definition is attempting to learn) blowing the landing and the CFI not having immediate power available. I know of no CFI who on a single engine piston driven regular old airplane (non-glider) turns off the key to the engine in the USA. Obviously a glider pilot thinks differently since every landing is a dead stick landing but I think you'd find yourself in the minority amongst CFI's in the USA when we are talking about piston powered single engine land category. The purpose of the exercise is to simulate (not create) an engine out landing. By turning off the key it really is an engine out landing which means the stakes are raised if the student botches the landing and the CFI is too late to recover. My amazement is that in other parts of the world they raise the risk factor of the training exercise on purpose and without need. Retarding the throttle to idle accomplishes the same task and therefore turning off the key is unnecessary and adds unneeded risk. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed Cesnalis Posted July 22, 2012 Report Share Posted July 22, 2012 When the time comes to deal with a real engine out situation you will be very glad that you have experience with dead stick landings and judging the landing pattern. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adam Posted July 22, 2012 Report Share Posted July 22, 2012 Of course, thats the point... You can practice without turning off the engine. I'm not advocating you don't practice, I'm advocating training smart. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Meade Posted July 22, 2012 Report Share Posted July 22, 2012 I appreciate that you are removing some of the emotional content of the description. As you point out, in many parts of the world this appears to be a reasoned and regular training activity. It is possible, in this case likely, that the U.S. aversion to this kind of training is an excess of caution. Since I've done both engine idle and engine out landings, I hold that there is both an aerodynamic and psychological difference. Coping with the difference is one point of the engine out training for those who are interested in it. A CFI is always responsible for the student's actions. If a student desires this kind of training, I'm sure a CFI would first give training in landing at idle. A IFR runway that is quiet and long enough can be selected. An IFR runway has an aiming point 500' inside the numbers and a touchdown point 500' inside that, so the CFI has 1000' feet of hard surface beneath him if for some reason the planes settles too quickly. But, it shouldn't settle too quickly. The CFI should be monitoring and giving positive directions continuously in the pattern. At no time should the CFI be so complacent as to permit a situation to become dangerous. Even if one hits a downdraft on final, the 1000' feet should be enough to cope with that. Plus, I've started the engine on short final and it worked fine, so that may provide another option if for example one is cut off by a NORDO crop duster at the last minute. Of course, one can be alert to other traffic and make radio calls to be sure others understand you are practicing an engine out landing. If you're nervous about that, go to a glider port where they do it all the time. I'm glad this discussion helped us all remove some of the emotion from the subject and look at it rationally. Of course, one should not do engine out landings willy nilly. But at the same time, there are obviously circumstances where it can be done safely and usefully. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed Cesnalis Posted July 22, 2012 Report Share Posted July 22, 2012 Of course, thats the point... You can practice without turning off the engine. I'm not advocating you don't practice, I'm advocating training smart. A dead stick landing is one with the engine out. It is valuable to experience dead stick landings they are more demanding ( you can't go around, you don't want to end up out of energy without being very close to the runway ) and your not sure how you will react until you experience it. When the day comes you will be very glad to have experienced a dead stick landing before and to know that you can handle the extra demands. At the minimum you want to be proficient slipping so you can give yourself margin from being short and still get it down on the numbers. Turning the engine out at higher and higher altitudes and from longer and and longer distances out provides valuable experience as well. In real life your engine out emergency landing may require flying a pattern or maneuvering for a short field landing. Spins, dead sticks, unusual attitudes, etc the attitude in this country is that pilots are safer without the training which may very well be true in the aggregate but may not be true for a given individual. Some of us are mostly self taught, long ago operating part 103. I got to experience some emergency landings in those days and from it I learned that under pressure I am prone to stay cool and fly the plane, or whats left of it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
josjonkers Posted July 23, 2012 Report Share Posted July 23, 2012 When the time comes to deal with a real engine out situation you will be very glad that you have experience with dead stick landings and judging the landing pattern. Well said! There is absolutely nothing dangerous about this controlled power out exercise and from what I saw done professionally and safely. If the student were to screw up the exercise, a quick turn of the ignition switch would add power instantly almost, well in advance of a potentially dangerous situation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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