ADSB upgrade

[Big Flapper]

I have a 2008 CTLS with a Garmin 330 ES transponder and a Garmin 696 GPS. I'm wondering what others have done with similar equipment to become ADSB compliant.

I'm told that the 695 GPS would not be WAAS output but the 330 can be upgraded to ES. Any help would be appreciated.

Tom

[BravoFoxtrot]

If your Garmin GTX330 is not currently Extended Squiter (ES) the upgrade will cost about $1,600 PLUS you will need a certified position source. A portable unit such as the 696 will not work. You will need a panel mount such as a GNS430W. Expect to pay $4-5,000 for a used unit plus installation. You would be better off buying an Uavionix tail beacon or a new ADS-B capable transponder. Either option will cost you $2-3,000 and up plus installation.

[sandpiper]

A Garmin GTX 345 will do in and out. It will send traffic, weather, etc to your 696. I don’t know the 345 current price. It was about $5500 when I did mine 3-4 years ago.  There are cheaper ways to go these days.

For display I use a Garmin Aera 660. Didn’t have panel space for a larger display without a lot more investment. I recommend using the largest display practical. Old eyes need all the help you can give them. 

 

[GlennM]

12 hours ago, sandpiper said:

A Garmin GTX 345 will do in and out. It will send traffic, weather, etc to your 696. I don’t know the 345 current price. It was about $5500 when I did mine 3-4 years ago.  There are cheaper ways to go these days.

For display I use a Garmin Aera 660. Didn’t have panel space for a larger display without a lot more investment. I recommend using the largest display practical. Old eyes need all the help you can give them. 

 

x2

My Aera660 and GTX345 installed at Gulf Coast Avionics a couple of years ago was right at $10k including the MRA from Flight Design.

[FlyingMonkey]

A GDL-82 includes a GPS source and ADS-B OUT and costs about $1800.  It also uses your existing transponder antenna so you don't need to add an antenna.  When I was looking this was the simplest, easiest, and least expensive option.  Then all you need is the ADS-B IN option of your choice.

[John Vance]

I had a GTX345 installed in 2016 by South Carolina Avionics Services in Orangeburg SC.  The invoiced price was $5945 for hardware and labor, but I sold the old transponder on EBay and recovered about $600 or so.  I also had a Garmin Bucks coupon for $100, so the total was maybe $5200.  It pays to shop around, and not just locally.  If you’re in or near a state that doesn’t charge tax on avionics, you can save a lot by having the work done there.  I was very happy with SCAS. FD can provide a drawing showing how to install the GPS antenna on the cabin roof. I was not able to make a connection to my 696 work, but the 345 will Bluetooth to your phone and iPad simultaneously, which I think is better.  It’s easier to zoom and pan on these devices than on the 696.  The system has worked flawlessly. 

[BravoFoxtrot]

The GDL-82 will only work with a Mode C transponder such as the GTX-327. The GTX-330 is Mode S and will not work with the GDL-82. 

 

[Madhatter]

Put in a 327 which are very cheap, lots of used ones out there.  Put in a Uavionix tail beacon. Both sre easy install plus you have anonymous ID on tail beacon.

[BravoFoxtrot]

The Uavionix USED to be compatible with both Mode C and Mode S, but in October 2020 they made a change and they will now only work with a Mode C transponder. Changing your transponder to a Mode C will give you more affordable options. Regrettably, the 330 and the 327 cannot use the same tray. The 327's is shorter and has a different wiring connector. That said, removing the 330, selling it and installing a 327 plus adding a GDL-82 or a Tailbeacon will still be a lot less than installing a new ADS-B transponder. BTW, both of these units have the capability for anonymous ID.

[FlyingMonkey]

53 minutes ago, BravoFoxtrot said:

both of these units have the capability for anonymous ID.

Be aware, anonymous mode is only "anonymous" to other airplanes.  ATC still sees your full information.  IMO it's kind of useless unless you are a celebrity or politician...or flying off to see your mistress and don't want your wife to see you on FlightAware.   

[Madhatter]

ATC does not see the ID. It sees random rotating  ID numbers. Only when squawking 1200.

[BravoFoxtrot]

Like Andy, I had thought that ATC always saw who you were, but Madhatter is correct. The following is from the FAA website on ADS-B (bold is mine):

ADS-B Out equipment transmits information about the aircraft's location, ground speed and other data once per second. The broadcast includes the aircraft's unique ICAO aircraft address, which for a U.S. registered aircraft is associated with its tail number, and the Mode A code ("squawk" code). The signal also includes the aircraft's flight identification, which for GA aircraft is generally the registration "N" number, or for commercial/government operator's, their call sign or airline flight number. Air traffic controllers can immediately see this information if they desire, however the controller has display options where they can suppress the N-number for VFR aircraft that are not receiving flight following services. Additionally, GA operators that are equipped with UAT transceivers, squawking 1200, and flying below FL180, have the option to select "anonymous mode". This enables the transceiver to broadcast a randomized temporary address, but it disables ATC's ability to provide services. The transceiver reverts back automatically to the assigned ICAO aircraft address when the anonymous mode is turned off.

[Anticept]

If one is really concerned about privacy, but also needs ADS-B and ATC services, there's a few options but none are foolproof***.

1: Request an opt-out from the FAA source. This is done via the "Limiting Aircraft Data Displayed" (LADD) program. https://www.faa.gov/pilots/ladd

*This does not prevent third party ADS-B receivers from providing your data, it only turns it off at the FAA source.

2: Subscriber level block - You have to contact each and every tracking provider and request a block on your tail number. Does not stop databases out there which do not participate in the FAA data feed; they have not signed that agreement with the FAA, and are not bound to it as a result.

3: Sign up for the Privacy ICAO Address(PIA) program. This allows you to actually use a different callsign from your tail number and program that into your ADS-B unit. Has a lot of obstacles though, including only support for 1090 ADS-B.

*** Not one of these options can completely anonymize you, because all block lists and the PIA program records are all still accessible via FOIA requests.

[FlyingMonkey]

You can also pop the breaker on your ADS-B Out and turn off the transponder.  Not legal, but that's about as anonymous as you're going to get.

[sandpiper]

On 3/28/2022 at 11:08 AM, John Vance said:

I was not able to make a connection to my 696 work, but the 345 will Bluetooth to your phone and iPad simultaneously, which I think is better.  It’s easier to zoom and pan on these devices than on the 696.  The system has worked flawlessly. 

I don’t disagree with you about the phone and iPad but I wanted something panel mounted so it’s always there. Although I do have an iFly gps on a mount that’s bolted to the panel. I don’t know if I can get traffic on that. It’s bigger and easier to see than the 660. Something I need to check out. 

[FlyingMonkey]

On 3/28/2022 at 4:35 PM, BravoFoxtrot said:

The GDL-82 will only work with a Mode C transponder such as the GTX-327. The GTX-330 is Mode S and will not work with the GDL-82. 

 

I was under the impression that Mode S transponders also include all Mode C functionality.  Is that not true?  Since Mode C is required in Class B & C airspace, how is a Mode S transponder legal in those airspaces if it doesn't also do Mode C?

[FlyingMonkey]

I currently have two ADS-B IN units in my airplane.  I originally had a Stratux unit feeding my iFly GPS, but later bought a Garmin GDL-50 to use with my iPad running Garmin Pilot.  I originally intended to remove the Stratux when I got the GDL-50, but I found like liked having traffic capability on both the iFly and the iPad.  The Stratux isn't really worth selling anyway.  Interestingly, I do notice that occasionally the two show slightly different traffic.  They are usually the same, but occasionally one will show a target the other does not, or vice versa.  I chalk that up to different target filtering in the two boxes.

For the Stratux, I mounted it with a custom bracket on top of the magnetic compass, so it has a beautiful view of the entire sky.  I checked the compass after install and it doesn't affect the magnetic heading information at all.  When I got the GDL I didn't want to mount it in a location like that in direct sunlight all the time, since it's a $700 unit.  So I used zip ties and put it in the passenger side map pocket on the underside of the mushroom.  I expected the ADS-B signal to be marginal there, under the 'shroom with the antenna folded in flat.  But I like it there and so far in a couple hundred hours I've never lost ADS-B signal except in the normal ways on the ground and at low altitude.

[BravoFoxtrot]

On 4/14/2022 at 7:41 AM, FlyingMonkey said:

I was under the impression that Mode S transponders also include all Mode C functionality.  Is that not true?  Since Mode C is required in Class B & C airspace, how is a Mode S transponder legal in those airspaces if it doesn't also do Mode C?

I believe we are talking about two different things. Mode S transponders do include all of Mode A and Mode C functionality, as well as include additional data for Mode S. 

What I was referring to was using a GDL-82 with a Mode S transponder. According to the Garmin GDL-82 Installation Manual 190-01810-00 Revision 6, Section 1.3 System Limitations ... Mode S Transponder - The GDL 82 should not be used with a Mode S transponder.

I have not been able to find out why they do not wish you to do this or what would happen if you did. 

[FlyingMonkey]

51 minutes ago, BravoFoxtrot said:

I believe we are talking about two different things. Mode S transponders do include all of Mode A and Mode C functionality, as well as include additional data for Mode S. 

What I was referring to was using a GDL-82 with a Mode S transponder. According to the Garmin GDL-82 Installation Manual 190-01810-00 Revision 6, Section 1.3 System Limitations ... Mode S Transponder - The GDL 82 should not be used with a Mode S transponder.

I have not been able to find out why they do not wish you to do this or what would happen if you did. 

I understood that, but I'm wondering...why?  The Mode S transponder should do all the Mode C bits, and the GDL-82 could discard the Mode S data.  Does mode S require a 1090MHz signal?  If the GDL-82 only supports UAT on 978Mhz  frequency, that could be the issue...antenna incompatibility.

[BravoFoxtrot]

Good question, but I haven't found a good answer. The only reference I have found is where someone installed a GDL-82 with a Mode S transponder, they then made a comment that the two did not play well together. Nothing further as to what the problem(s) were or what if anything was done to resolve this.

The Uavionix Tailbeacon was originally sold as compatible with Mode S but with the following comment:

"Anonymous mode must not be enabled when tailBeacon is installed on an aircraft with a Mode S transponder. Doing so will present an ICAO code mismatch to ATC." 

Later they said they were only compatible with Mode C transponders. You would think if this was the only issue, they could permanently inhibit the Anonymous mode. If there were other issues, they should have been able to offer a version that would work.

[FlyingMonkey]

1 hour ago, BravoFoxtrot said:

Good question, but I haven't found a good answer. The only reference I have found is where someone installed a GDL-82 with a Mode S transponder, they then made a comment that the two did not play well together. Nothing further as to what the problem(s) were or what if anything was done to resolve this.

The Uavionix Tailbeacon was originally sold as compatible with Mode S but with the following comment:

"Anonymous mode must not be enabled when tailBeacon is installed on an aircraft with a Mode S transponder. Doing so will present an ICAO code mismatch to ATC." 

Later they said they were only compatible with Mode C transponders. You would think if this was the only issue, they could permanently inhibit the Anonymous mode. If there were other issues, they should have been able to offer a version that would work.

Interesting.  Sounds like Anonymous mode steps on the Mode S data (it probably strips out all identifying information, including the hexidecimal ID that Mode S uses).  That could account for the ICAO code mismatch.  Maybe the GDL series sees Mode S data and disables the communication rather than disallowing anonymous mode...probably due to lawyers! 

[Anticept]

Mode S transponders have the extended squitter data on 1090, while UAT sends on 978.

- The GDL-82 can't send because the ES info is already there. There is a direct conflict in the data stream, the GDL-82 expects only mode C. (There may be a way around this, the transponder might allow you to comfigure it to send only send mode c)

- Using anonymous mode on UAT while using a mode S will cause it to show as two aircraft in close proximity, because anonymous mode will send a different hex code, while the mode S will be sending your tail number. When anonymous mode is not used, it will just appear as a dual band transmitter and that's fine.

[GrassStripFlyBoy]

On the ADS-B topic, the weather is finally warm enough for working in the hanger, and completed install of this today:

Discovery Dual Band ADS-B Receiver – grtavionics.com

Very happy with it, provides serial output to feed EFIS screen weather and traffic, as well as wifi for the Ipad.  No subscription costs, simple install, and came complete with antenna / wiring and everything needed.