opticsguy Posted May 22, 2011 Author Report Share Posted May 22, 2011 Water was all over the jets on the left carb. I went to lunch and the water had evaporated when I came back. If you DID have water in your carb, you couldn't remove it unless you did drop the bowl, especially if it won't start. Without the proper tools, it is a major pain in the ass to do. I'm going to have a carb balance done as a precaution. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Meade Posted May 22, 2011 Report Share Posted May 22, 2011 Roger, Your explanation is not consistent with what I read about how water, gasoline and ethanol mix. Ethanol prefers water. If forced to choose, ethanol will leave a gasoline mixture and engage in a water mixture. To me, it seems like all water and ethanol will be bonded before any ethanol and gasoline will be bonded. If there is only a small amount of water, the ethanol will bond with both and the entire mixture will be a solution. If there is more water than the ethanol can bond with, it would seem logical to me that ethanol would continually unbond with gasoline in order to bond with water. this is phase separation. It would seem to me there are three steps involving water in a gasohol mixture. 1. There is a tiny bit of water and it bonds with ethanol which is also bonded to gasoline. We don't see it. 2. There is as much water that some ethanol can no longer bond with gasoline. We see a layer of gasohol and under it a layer of ethanol and water which we say has phase separated. 3. There is more water than the ethanol can bond with. We see at the bottom a layer of pure water, above it a layer of phase separated water and ethanol and on top a layer of nearly pure gasoline. Please tell me where you think I am in error and if possible include some scientific references so I can get my head around this. NB. This is an academic discussion. We all agree we don't want phase separation in any for in our fuel system. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger Lee Posted May 22, 2011 Report Share Posted May 22, 2011 Hi Jim, You are right on all accounts and if my post didn't reflect that then I worded it poorly because that was exactly what I was trying to say.. The normal amount a of water that a pilot may have in the ethanol blended fuel you usually won't see as we don't usually come in contact with an excessive volume of water. I'm a HazMat Tech from the Tucson Fire Department (retired) and I still teach HazMat for Homeland Security. Water in any fluid, leak or fire problem is a big issue for all fire departments. You need to know how it will react or not react in all incident conditions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Meade Posted May 23, 2011 Report Share Posted May 23, 2011 Roger, Thanks for clarifying that - maybe I was reading it wrong, as well. In any event, it's good to understand it now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chanik Posted May 23, 2011 Report Share Posted May 23, 2011 You will never get 3 layers, just ever more dilute 'vodka' under the layer of reduced octane petroleum. Pure water would mix quickly with any ethanol water blend. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Meade Posted May 24, 2011 Report Share Posted May 24, 2011 Chemically, they never saturate? I'm no chemist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chanik Posted May 24, 2011 Report Share Posted May 24, 2011 No, water and ethanol are both polar liquids and are fully soluble in each other at any ratio. Nonpolar liquids like gasoline and toluene also dissolve each other in any ratio. It is the dissimilar types that have a limited ability, if any, to form solutions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
opticsguy Posted May 28, 2011 Author Report Share Posted May 28, 2011 I had the carbs balanced today and they were pretty close. All the manipulations to drain the bowls didn't have much effect. It seems to be running as good as ever, climbing 900 FPM in 90 degree weather. A wide stubby screwdriver and a ground-down 12mm open-end wrench are now part of the on-board took kit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
opticsguy Posted April 21, 2012 Author Report Share Posted April 21, 2012 Well, this was an ignition system problem all along! Since I have my annual in the fall, I have all winter with no starting problems, but as soon as the weather gets warm, my CT won't start. Now into the third summer this was getting discouraging. Dean at Lockwood suggested I replace both ignition modules with the soft start kit for $880. Since a plane that won't start is worthless, I took a chance. The install took less than an hour, and after sitting for 3 weeks, it started before the prop had COMPLETED ONE TURN! From what I was told this is becoming fairly common in 2006 era Rotax engines. There is some sort of intermittent open circuit or short that may be caused by repeated expansion and contraction of the plastic block. Since 2005-2006 was the early years of lead-free solder, I tend to believe this (it could also be a capacitor beginning to crack). Early lead-free solders were very brittle and temperature sensitive. An unusual feature of this failure is that it affects low RPM operation, like starts, and rarely shows up during the mag check at 3000 RPM. I flew two whole summers and several cross-country's with this issue. I'd thought I would dig up this old post in case others are having this problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger Lee Posted April 21, 2012 Report Share Posted April 21, 2012 Thanks for the info. This is good info for future issues. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
opticsguy Posted April 22, 2012 Author Report Share Posted April 22, 2012 I flew today with the new modules. Not only does it start instantly, the idle is smoother, and it also feels smoother over 5200 RPM. It is a noticeable difference. Anyone with the Franz ignition modules that is having a starting or idling problem should consider replacing them before spending money and time trying to fault the fuel system. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bseager Posted June 17, 2013 Report Share Posted June 17, 2013 I am having a very similar issue with my 2006 CTSW. Intermittently it just will not start. At other times it starts and runs normally. I expect the issue may well be as described above, faulty modules being the culprit. My mechanic has ruled out fuel supply issues and has inspected the wiring and has found nothing. He also feels it could be the ignition switch as he did not believe it was possible for the modules to fail together and prevent a start. In either case, if it does start normally do you think this is an 'in-flight' safety issue? If the fault were to occur in flight, would the engine quit? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
opticsguy Posted June 19, 2013 Author Report Share Posted June 19, 2013 There hasn't been an in-flight safety issue yet that I know of. I'm am worried that if you have really low idle, or for some reason the engine stops, this problem could present itself. My experience was that once I got the engine started it would hot start all day long. The engine needs to sit for a day or two before this short would happen. After two years, still no response from Lockwood or Rotax after sending in the defective parts and filing a report. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger Lee Posted June 19, 2013 Report Share Posted June 19, 2013 Usually electric works or it doesn't. It can be intermittent, but usually not like that. This sure sounds more fuel related in some way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
acresflyer Posted June 19, 2013 Report Share Posted June 19, 2013 I had exactly the same starting problems as Opticsguy on my 2005 CTSW .When it wouldn't start I would place an ice pack on top of the modules for 10 minutes and then it would start. Once started it would be fine until it sat for a day or two. I replaced one module and the starting problem went away. Then a year later, I would get RPM fluctuations after start-up until the engine warmed up then it would smooth out. One day on initial take off I had a 150 RPM drop for about 10 seconds on climb out. Afer landing, my mechanic checked the fuel and carbs and did not find anything significant. The next day on start-up I once again got the RPM fluctuations. This time I decided to check the ignition while at idle and it stopped dead on the right circuit. I decided to replace both modules with the new soft-start ones and haven't had any problems since. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
opticsguy Posted June 22, 2013 Author Report Share Posted June 22, 2013 It got to the point that if I knew I HAD to fly, I would go out a day earlier and crank on the starter until the battery was drained, charge up the battery overnight, and "usually" it would start the next day. I went through a lot of batteries doing this. The 912 starter can take the abuse, I guess. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bseager Posted July 4, 2013 Report Share Posted July 4, 2013 Just to close the loop on this, my starting issues were solved with the replacement of the Franz Ignition Modules. Apparently there were a series of engines produced around 2006 that were equipped with a batch of bad modules. Even though it took six or seven years to show up it sounds like I will get some credit for the cost of the new soft start modules. So if you have a 2006 CTSW and you start having inexplicable starting issues, consider the modules as a likely suspect and get them checked. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
opticsguy Posted July 11, 2013 Author Report Share Posted July 11, 2013 I submitted the paperwork for the cost of the mew modules 2 years ago.. Nothing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bseager Posted October 2, 2013 Report Share Posted October 2, 2013 Just to let everyone know, the replacement of my ignition modules (the cost of new modules) was covered 100% by Rotax as a warranty item without any action on my part. Was about a $1300 credit on the invoice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FlyingMonkey Posted October 2, 2013 Report Share Posted October 2, 2013 Just to let everyone know, the replacement of my ignition modules (the cost of new modules) was covered 100% by Rotax as a warranty item without any action on my part. Was about a $1300 credit on the invoice. NICE!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger Lee Posted October 2, 2013 Report Share Posted October 2, 2013 Hi bseager, Glad it worked out. This is why everyone needs to make sure their engine is registered, submit the right paperwork and absolutely send it through the right channels which is their Nearest Rotax distributor and and third hand. Failing to do these couple of simple things may cost you many months delay. This is the website that anyone can put in their engine serial number and it will tell you if your engine is registered. http://registration.kodiakbs.com/index.php?jqk_2909321=quickcheck If you are a second or third owner you need to re-file paperwork and submit it to not only Rotax, but your aircraft Mfg. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FlyingMonkey Posted October 2, 2013 Report Share Posted October 2, 2013 Hi bseager, Glad it worked out. This is why everyone needs to make sure their engine is registered, submit the right paperwork and absolutely send it through the right channels which is their Nearest Rotax distributor and and third hand. Failing to do these couple of simple things may cost you many months delay. This is the website that anyone can put in their engine serial number and it will tell you if your engine is registered. http://registration....9321=quickcheck If you are a second or third owner you need to re-file paperwork and submit it to not only Rotax, but your aircraft Mfg. Hey Roger, I just checked, my engine is not registered, but I did submit the paperwork to register with Flight Design. Who is the Rotax Distributor for Georgia? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger Lee Posted October 3, 2013 Report Share Posted October 3, 2013 Hi Andy, Lockwood is that regional distributor. FD is not responsible to register engines the owner is. Call them and see what you need to do. I also believe the paperwork is on the Rotax Flying club website. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FlyingMonkey Posted October 3, 2013 Report Share Posted October 3, 2013 Thanks Roger! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
opticsguy Posted October 9, 2013 Author Report Share Posted October 9, 2013 Interesting. i was told they wouldn't cover mine. I wish Rotax would own up to the fact that these are failing and put out a SB. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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