Pattern Work

[airhound]

How do you fly a typical closed traffic pattern? What are your speeds rpm’s flap settings and distances from the runway?

[Bill3558]

When there is no other traffic I like to fly a tight pattern pretending I lost the engine abeam the numbers or before.  Power back, 70 knots, 0 flaps. 30-40 degree turn to base about 1/4 mile from end of runway.( watch the ball ) , no back pressure. Let the nose drop and loose altitude.  15 flaps. Tight turn to final. Usually have to slip the plane to get it down. It’s fun and good practice. 

[FlyingMonkey]

I fly very tight patterns.  CT and LSA in general have low inertia and won't glad very far without power from pattern height.  I turn base probably 1/8 mile from the end of the runway, and use a slip to get down if I'm high.  I'd rather be high and have to adjust that out than be too low if the engine quits.

[Tom Baker]

1 hour ago, FlyingMonkey said:

I fly very tight patterns.  CT and LSA in general have low inertia and won't glad very far without power from pattern height.  I turn base probably 1/8 mile from the end of the runway, and use a slip to get down if I'm high.  I'd rather be high and have to adjust that out than be too low if the engine quits.

How high are you when you turn final? At 50 knots with a 1000 foot per minute rate of descent 1/8 mile would put you at 133 feet high.

[FlyingMonkey]

I start descending abeam the numbers or a little before, and I often fly my pattern 100ft or so below TPA, depending on the airport and other traffic around.  I don't think I need 1000fpm, but do end up in a full slip quite a bit which might put me at 750-800fpm descent

I think I posted an image at one point showing where my base is in relation to the runway.

[Towner]

For me, climb out at 78 knots, usually hitting pattern altitude about when I turn crosswind or just after (5200 ft long runway). I keep it about 80-85 on downwind. Pull throttle abeam the numbers and ad 15 degrees of flaps. I fly at about 62 on base. I keep a pretty tight pattern too. If winds are light, I like to land at 30 degrees of flaps, which I normally add just after turning final, but I’ll sometimes slow and add them on base. The 30 degrees really drops the nose and adds a lot of drag. I keep it about 50 knots on final. 

The problem with the CT is I like to constantly change things up. I was always taught to fly a stabilized approach, but I really don’t in the CT. I often come in high and slip it down on final. I play with different speeds and approach angles all the time. We never have good crosswinds here. The other day I flew 40 miles to an airport that always has crosswinds. It was a direct crosswind of about 15 knots. Made 5 landings for fun and went home.

The plane works well in a number or different pattern setup’s so I guess it’s really up to who is flying and what they want. Or, like me, just change it around all the time for fun. The key is just getting the speed right when you round out at the runway.

I’ll even play with a simulated engine out on the departure and the “impossible turn”.  I can comfortably do it at 400 agl. The biggest problem for me at this altitude is getting it stopped before the end of the runway. At 400 agl, I’m not even close to the departure end of the runway, so I have a short landing distance after the turn.

Fun!

[Tom Baker]

3 hours ago, FlyingMonkey said:

I start descending abeam the numbers or a little before, and I often fly my pattern 100ft or so below TPA, depending on the airport and other traffic around.  I don't think I need 1000fpm, but do end up in a full slip quite a bit which might put me at 750-800fpm descent

I think I posted an inage at one point showing where my base is in relation to the runway.

My point was your stated 1/8 mile, that is only 660 feet. At 50 knots that will take less than 8 seconds to cover. With a 1000 foot per minute descent you would only be 133 feet high, and your descent angle would be over 10°. I expect you are higher than that when turning final. The standard approach in aviation is 3°. A CT power off glide will probably be closer to 4-5°. 

Purposely flying your pattern below the standard altitude is a bad idea. One you will blend in with the background for other traffic, and second there is a greater chance for another aircraft to descend on top of you. If they are a low wing with your high wing neither of you will know what happened.

[sandpiper]

All of the above with emphasis on tight when traffic allows.

And, I agree with Tom that flying below TPA is a bad idea. If you want to deviate from TPA, above is a better choice. You will be more likely to be seen because you won't disappear into the ground clutter.. Personally, I prefer to be right at TPA.

When abeam the numbers (at TPA) and at 60KIAS and 15 degrees flaps go to 30 degrees flaps and close throttle. Forget looking at airspeed.  Instead, notice the bottom edge of the droop wing tip and place it level with the horizon - CTSW only. Now glance at airspeed. You will find the AS to be pretty close to ideal. Good to know should you ever have a malfunction with your air speed indicator.

Be safe.

[Tom Baker]

The OP is flying a CTLSi, so it is a little different than a CTSW. With a standard 1000 foot traffic pattern and 800 foot rate of descent it will take 1 minute 15 seconds to descend from 1000 feet. That being said when you reduce power abeam the numbers you will travel a little ways without descending as you slow down. So figure that you will need to travel around 1.5 miles from 1000 feet to the end of the runway. I will normally fly the downwind around 1/2 mile from the runway. I turn base when the runway is at a 45° behind me, and about a 1/2 mile final. This is with power off abeam the numbers with 15° flaps, and around 62 knots. I make a gradual round out/flare starting a little higher than most people here say they use. I like to touch down just above stall speed. If I am trying to touch down at a certain point I aim for a spot about 300 feet short.

[Towner]

I should mention that even though I play with different approach speeds, slips, flap settings etc., I don’t do anything to interfere with other traffic or to the extent it becomes dangerous for me. But that is actually a good reason to play with different settings. My airport has little traffic, is at sea level and surrounded by flat terrain. I don’t have to travel far to find the opposite of these three conditions. I’ll often speed things up until short final to keep from holding up a busy pattern with faster airplanes. I’ll sometimes need a steeper pattern due to terrain. It’s nice to feel comfortable when different situations come into play.

[Anticept]

I'll have to do a video about how I do landings.

I had to do the power off 180 accurate landing for my commercial in mine. Absolutely not easy at all in a CT, this maneuver benefits far more from an aircraft with inertia. But there are a few sighting tricks to use to check your descent rate and I'll have to demonstrate them.

Wind complicates the rules of thumb a bit, but with all these sighting tricks, you get immediate feedback if you are doing it right or are to high or too low, which is super helpful to refine your technique.

[airhound]

Wind is calm, long runway…

What is Safe bank angle when operating tight, 1/2 mile from runway on downwind x1000ft AGL, when turning base, then base to final? How close are you to the banked stall speed??? 

[Warmi]

43 minutes ago, airhound said:

Wind is calm, long runway…

What is Safe bank angle when operating tight, 1/2 mile from runway on downwind x1000ft AGL, when turning base, then base to final? How close are you to the banked stall speed??? 

If I end up blowing my base to final turn then whatever it takes  - I don’t remember details but I have gone over 45-50 degrees a few times and as long as wings are unloaded ( I only do that when in a descending turn ) and it is not gusty , I don’t see that as particularly dangerous …

[airhound]

Warmi, thanks, what kind speeds are we talking about.

[Warmi]

I don’t remember every time  but generally I am around 60 knots on base and then 55 or so over the numbers …

[airhound]

Thank you 

[Warmi]

1 minute ago, airhound said:

Thank you 

Here is video I found , at around 1 minute I am turning final probably at around 45 degrees , maybe a bit more … it is not a flight design but similar another light sport with very similar stall characteristics.

 

[airhound]

Nice thanks Warmi

[Towner]

Nice and smart recovery from the bounce!

[Tom Baker]

12 hours ago, airhound said:

Wind is calm, long runway…

What is Safe bank angle when operating tight, 1/2 mile from runway on downwind x1000ft AGL, when turning base, then base to final? How close are you to the banked stall speed??? 

For a normal pattern I teach 60-62 knots and no more than 30° bank. It is not that you can't make a steeper bank safely, but if you have a non flying passenger, they will likely not like the steep bank. Practice the same way you plan to fly..

[FlyingMonkey]

Here's the base to final turn I made yesterday.  This one was admittedly pretty high, but this is about where I like to turn final.  I call the turn on the radio as "turning short final".

As for TPA...as I said it depends on what's going on and who's in the pattern.  I always enter a pattern at TPA, but if I'm doing touch and goes and there is nobody else around, I don't see any problem flying a lower pattern.  TPA is a recommendation, not a requirement.  This is one of those cases where you can use common sense and do what makes sense for the situation.  We often have Cubs and such in this area that fly a 500ft pattern with no issues.

IMO, it's more important that you talk on the radio and announce your position.  If you are not talking on the radio you are far more likely to cause a conflict than if you are 100ft low and talking the whole time.  In fact, up to 99ft low you will still pass a checkride.

[sandpiper]

Tom said:

"For a normal pattern I teach 60-62 knots and no more than 30° bank. It is not that you can't make a steeper bank safely, but if you have a non flying passenger, they will likely not like the steep bank. Practice the same way you plan to fly.."

 

I agree Tom. Normally I want to see a 30 degree bank turning downwind to base, then a shallower base to final turn. Base to final is where many of the stall/spin accidents occur. Starting that turn earlier, and shallower, gives the pilot some room to "finesse" the turn, and make minor corrections, instead of having to make steep banked corrections when overshooting final. I don't do much instruction anymore, maybe a few flight reviews a year, but there was a time and this is what I taught.