5 Year Rubber Parts for CTLSi

[Animosity2k]

Due for the 5 year rubber and my AP said if I can get the parts on my own it would save me quite a bit. I reached out to Lockwood and they don't offer a kit, nor could they tell me exactly what parts I needed. They sent me this excel spreadsheet of what they had listed for a SW/CTLS. Is anyone able to tell me what parts out of this list I would need to order for my mechanic? 

Thanks!

Rotax 5-Year Hose and Rubber Component Requirement Replacement 30-March-2013 (1).xlsx

[Animosity2k]

11 minutes ago, Roger Lee said:

This list won't help you except for the oil and coolant hose. You don't have carbs and you have pre-formed hoses vs the 912ULS. Plus you need a fuel pressure regulator. Depending on the wear you may need exhaust springs?

 

Holy Cow! No wonder they charge so much. Some things there aren't needed and others can be purchased locally.

Carb overhaul isn't needed, fire sleeve is re-usable. 

In my case my fire sleeves are burnt or very dry by now. Looks like Lockwood should make a more up to date list!

[Animosity2k]

This is the list that LEAF sent over to me just a moment ago. It's for a 912iS with the Sport engine upgrade. 

912iS Sport Five Year Rubber Replacement Parts List RH.doc

[Animosity2k]

18 minutes ago, Roger Lee said:

WOW, Quite a list. I've never seen  or heard of anyone change all those items.

Things like the oil tank"O" ring (Why), valve cover "O" rings, expansion tank cap (Why), expansion tank rubber pad, copper sealing ring, replacing fire sleeve (Why)  and 1-2 others. I'd like to hear a sound scientific evidence based PROVEN reason for some of these.

Don't shoot the messenger  I'm just trying to build a list of what I need to order. Really wish they just had a kit, make my life much easier. 

[Tom Baker]

15 hours ago, Roger Lee said:

WOW, Quite a list. I've never seen  or heard of anyone change all those items.

Things like the oil tank"O" ring (Why), valve cover "O" rings, expansion tank cap (Why), expansion tank rubber pad, copper sealing ring, replacing fire sleeve (Why)  and 1-2 others. I'd like to hear a sound scientific evidence based PROVEN reason for some of these.

Maybe because Rotax says they should be replaced. 

Oil tank O-rings I do on condition, but I have seen them deformed from over tightening the clamp.

I always replace the rocker O-rings at the rubber replacement after performing the pressure purge, and checking the lifters. If they are not replaced they become hard and will not seal well. The worst rocker cover O-rings I have seen came off of your old airplane Roger. I am not saying it was your fault, because the airplane was lacking in maintenance after you sold it. I suspect they had not been replaced since you installed the new engine 10 years ago. They were hard as a rock and broke when removing them from the groove.

The expansion tank pad probably doesn't need replaced every 5 years, but at 10 they are starting to crack. At 15 years they are broken and falling apart.

I replace copper sealing rings anytime they are removed. This is standard practice within the aviation industry. Every time they are tightened down they are squished and deformed. Plus they will work harden. 

[Tom Baker]

Roger, 

How do you choose what to follow, and what not to follow? Is it only when it suits you?

CFR 91.327 says, 

No person may operate an aircraft that has a special airworthiness certificate in the light-sport category unless -

(1) The aircraft is maintained by a certificated repairman with a light-sport aircraft maintenance rating, an appropriately rated mechanic, or an appropriately rated repair station in accordance with the applicable provisions of part 43 of this chapter and maintenance and inspection procedures developed by the aircraft manufacturer or a person acceptable to the FAA;

I am fairly certain that your procedures are not acceptable to the FAA. That means if you don't follow the procedure for the oil change and replace the crush gasket, a $1.71 part, every flight the customer makes is in violation of the regulations. Are you that willing to put your customers at risk over a $1.71 part? I am not willing to put my customers at risk over not following procedures developed by the manufacture.

My parts list is not as exhaustive as Leading Edge's, but I certainly replace some of the items you are suggesting don't need replaced. Here is my list that I put together off an old work order.

Rotax Parts List for 912iS Rubber Replacement.docx

[Animosity2k]

I appreciate everyones help and lists! Have a few parts that LEAF / Lockwood doesn't sell that I have some questions on, see below:

So I have a few questions on some of the other parts:

1) Band it clamps. Aircraft Spruce carries 3 part#s and sizes (see link below) do you know which one is correct? Also 28 of these is the correct amount I need? https://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/appages/eatonclamps_900591B5C.php?clickkey=3213469

2) Is this the correct Gascolator gasket (10536-1 replacement gasket)

https://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/eppages/acs_06-00441.php

3) The entire quick drain valve (CCA1550) is only $15. Is this the better route to go then getting a seal for it? Mine has had a slight leak for some time as is. 

4) Lastly, fuel sight tube. Any particular size? When I search it on AS I see this as the first result, will it work?

https://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/mepages/pvcpipe.php?clickkey=62825

Thanks in advance appreciate all this help more then you know! 

[Anticept]

I find that those gascolators don't have deep enough threads tapped. I have a thread tapping kit and I deepened mine a little. As it comes from factory, the gasket rubs against the threads when it opens and closes, and I have pulled out many that have gasket damage, leading to those leaks. It's really not a good gascolator design all things considered, but it's not bad either. After tapping, the rubber gasket clears the threads just fine and I get a much better flow.

If your valve is leaking, grab a replacement valve. Not worth buying the gaskets anymore.

[Jim Meade]

 

[procharger]

Roger could put together hose change kits and sell them how about it Roger????

[Tom Baker]

14 hours ago, Roger Lee said:

"My parts list is not as exhaustive as Leading Edge's"

This would mean you're as guilty as me.

No, and let me tell you why.

The regulations say it is procedures that must be followed, and specifically the aircraft manufactures procedures. Flight Design for the engine says to refer to the Rotax manuals for inspection and maintenance. So if you are performing maintenance like an oil change you must follow Rotax's procedures. If you are performing a pressure purge, you must follow Rotax procedures. Any maintenance that is performed on the engine, Rotax procedures must be followed. If a procedure calls for replacing a part, replace the part. If you are replacing a part follow the procedure for replacing the part. Choosing not to replace a Rotax part that is not part of a procedure is not contrary to the regulations, unless Flight Design specifically says it needs to be replaced. I try to follow the procedures to the best of my ability. I replace parts when the procedures I'm performing say they need to be replaced. Also you need to be careful how you word logbook entries to make sure you don't say you did something that you didn't do.

All of your ranting about aircraft manufactures not following Rotax does not fall on the mechanic, or the pilot. The aircraft manufacture can do what they want. They take on the responsibility for what they do. It is not our job to make changes to the aircraft without approval from the aircraft manufacture, even if you think it goes against what Rotax says. 

[Tom Baker]

Roger, it may be a couple days before I can attempt a formal reply, I have to go do 5 glider inspections tomorrow,  and maybe Sunday.

[Jacques]

8 hours ago, Roger Lee said:

No issue here. I'm in the middle of an annual / hose change on an Italian Savannah. It has metal flex hoses and undersized fuel and oil flex lines.

yep,,always found strange those Savannah hoses...waiting for your comments Roger...and pictures  thx

[Animosity2k]

I'm just happy I was able to get a decent parts list!  

[Animosity2k]

Anyone know what size the fire sleeve is?

[Tom Baker]

On 12/9/2022 at 8:37 PM, Roger Lee said:

On 12/9/2022 at 8:37 PM, Roger Lee said:

Hi Tom,

I'm enjoying our debate. This is how we all learn.  

You still didn't answer my questions in my last post on where many things on the Leading Edge are not listed in the Rotax manual to replace, but you're advocating they need to be. Please post the sentence or paragraph from the Rotax manual that says these things have to be replaced. 

A little trouble following this question, but I didn't say everything on their list needed to be replaced. I said Maybe, because I had not taken the time to review the manual before posting. My list is not as extensive as theirs, because I don't replace as much as they do. My guess it that their list is based on what is in the Rotax manual, combined with what they are seeing in the field when working on these engines. My list is based on the same. Also some aircraft manufactures

"Choosing not to replace a Rotax part that is not part of a procedure is not contrary to the regulations, unless Flight Design specifically says it needs to be replaced."

You still haven't shown me where it says change the rubber pad under the expansion tank, "O" ring in the oil tank, Rubber socket on the 912is, replace fire sleeve, ect...

What I said about the rubber pad was that I am seeing deterioration. They become hard and brittle, and start cracking. If I see any signs of deterioration when performing a rubber replacement I replace the pad. I typically replace the oil tank O-ring on condition. Firesleeve I do the same way. If the ends are frayed, or there is any damage to the silicone outer layer I will replace the firesleeve. I will reuse it if I can. If I have a piece that needs trimmed that can be used someplace else I will use it. Often when I see an airplane for the first time doing a rubber replacement there is quite a bit of firesleeve that gets changed because of how the last mechanic left it. I have had two airplane recently that every piece of firesleeve needed attention. One airplane I replaced almost all of it because it was in pretty bad shape, the other I replaced some and recycled the other by trimming and re dipping the ends and using it for shorter runs.

The aircraft manufacture can do what they want."

No they can't. They have rules and regs to follow too. They can't give away the farm or place demands more than FAA allows. I know I've corrected 2-3 MFG's manuals and they made the changes.

When I said the manufactures can do what they want I meant in regards to the manufacture of the airplane. The FAA doesn't regulate the manufacture of the airplanes directly, that is done by the ASTM standard. The FAA accepts the standard to allow issuing an airworthiness certificate. As a mechanic if the FAA accepts the airplane I assume that it meets the ASTM standards for certification. I also know that things can fall through the cracks, manufactures make mistakes, and things sometime need to be addressed. You need to follow proper channels to address these issues.

You say follow the Rotax manual and you say FD says follow the Rotax manual, but you also say you don't have to do 100 HR. inspections (in a previous post), but it's right there in the Rotax maint. manual that FD says to follow. As I quoted right out of the Rotax manual you have to do 100 hr. inspections. So why aren't you doing these.

I say to follow the Aircraft manufacture's manual. In the case of Flight Design it say to refer to, not follow the Rotax maintenance manual for inspection and maintenance. So for inspecting the engine I refer to the Rotax 100hr/annual inspection checklist.

What I have said in the past is that light sport airplanes don't get 100 hour inspections. A 100 hour inspection is an official FAA required inspection for type certified aircraft that are used for hire. Light sport aircraft get condition inspections. These inspections must be done annually, and if the aircraft is being used for commercial purposes it must have happened within the last 100 hours. I will concede that it might be possible for a manufacture to have an abbreviated checklist for a 100 hour inspection, but unless it is extremely less complicated why would you not just do a condition inspection. The mechanic credentials required are the same, unlike with standard category where an A&P can do a 100 hour inspection, but you must have an IA to do a Annual inspection.

Remember when you said  we don't do 100 hr. inspections. If you are going to do what Rotax says about hose change or what's posted in the manual then you have to follow this in the manual."

See above. I do use the checklist, but I do not sign it off as a 100 hour inspection. Flight Design doesn't reference the rubber replacement in their manual, so technically in my opinion it is not legally required by regulation. But if I do decide to do the rubber replacement I need to follow Rotax's procedures for the work I am performing. With that said, based on my experience sometime between 5 and 10 years there will be significant deterioration of some of the parts that a failure is possible. To error on the side of safety I think that the 5 year replacement schedule should be followed. 

"So if you are performing maintenance like an oil change you must follow Rotax's procedures."

CFR 91.327 says you must follow the manufactures procedures. Part 43 says you must follow acceptable procedures. The Rotax instructions for performing a oil change says to replace the crush gasket. Replacing the gasket is step 5 of the oil change procedure in the line maintenance manual. Every aircraft and engine manual that I have seen says to replace crush gaskets when removed, and it is standard practice to do so. This is what I was taught 40 years ago when I went to A&P school. Replacing them is probably written somewhere in a FAA publication.

So you're saying there isn't more that one way to skin a cat?

I don't know how many ways there are to skin a cat, and I've never skinned one. I have skinned a rabbits before, and I was only taught one way to do it, and I assume that was the right way, because it worked.

Just like you mentioned about following the Rotax oil purge procedure. Did you know there is more than one way they use?

There may be more than one way to do it. I know the manual says that purging the oil system is critical. I know the SL says to check the lifters. Can you show any of the procedures that does not say to check the lifters after performing the purge? I haven't seen one.

Your picking and choosing just like all mechanics and owners do and have done for a hundred years. We all do it whether we want to admit it or not or we just don't know how, why and what.

I suppose we all pick and choose, but it is how you choose that makes the difference. You can choose to follow the regulations. You can choose to follow manufactures procedures. You can choose to follow standard industry practices. When I make a choice my process is, is it safe, does it comply with regulations. Finally I like to be able to show valid reasoning for my choice like documentation that says it should be done this way. 

I have never seen a plane come into the shop I can't find things wrong with that someone else did either knowingly or not.

Everyone keys on different things, and people sometimes have different opinions or interpretations of how things should be. I'm sure you could find stuff I have done that you don't like, and I know it goes the other way as well. Not long ago I did a rubber replacement and inspection on your old airplane.

 

 

 

[Animosity2k]

Received the package and forgot to copy your address down on the way into work (remembered to bring a check though!) shoot me your address and I'll get the check out to you today.

[Mike Koerner]

Mike Koerner

PO Box 3565

Palos Verdes, CA 90274

 

PS. If you forgot the amount you can leave that part blank. I'll fill it in for you. 

[Animosity2k]

8 hours ago, Mike Koerner said:

Mike Koerner

PO Box 3565

Palos Verdes, CA 90274

 

PS. If you forgot the amount you can leave that part blank. I'll fill it in for you. 

Classic!  Luckily for me I got Tom's info before you snuck in.