5 Year Rubber Parts for CTLSi

[Animosity2k]

Due for the 5 year rubber and my AP said if I can get the parts on my own it would save me quite a bit. I reached out to Lockwood and they don't offer a kit, nor could they tell me exactly what parts I needed. They sent me this excel spreadsheet of what they had listed for a SW/CTLS. Is anyone able to tell me what parts out of this list I would need to order for my mechanic? 

Thanks!

Rotax 5-Year Hose and Rubber Component Requirement Replacement 30-March-2013 (1).xlsx

[Roger Lee]

This list won't help you except for the oil and coolant hose. You don't have carbs and you have pre-formed hoses vs the 912ULS. Plus you need a fuel pressure regulator. Depending on the wear you may need exhaust springs?

 

Holy Cow! No wonder they charge so much. Some things there aren't needed and others can be purchased locally.

Carb overhaul isn't needed, fire sleeve is re-usable. 

Pre-formed hoses.

822-420, 822-440, 822-430, 822-445, 822-450, fuel pressure regulator 889-262, 1" coolant hose (local) 4', 5/16 fuel injection hose (local) 9'.Oetiker clamps, Band-It clamps. 17mm coolant hose 2 meters may be enough I'd buy 3 meters).

Dremel tool with reinforced cut off blades to remove Band=It and Oetiker clamps. If you have to replace a bad fire sleeve get size 10 for fuel hose and size 14 for oil hose. Don't replace good fire sleeve.

[Animosity2k]

11 minutes ago, Roger Lee said:

This list won't help you except for the oil and coolant hose. You don't have carbs and you have pre-formed hoses vs the 912ULS. Plus you need a fuel pressure regulator. Depending on the wear you may need exhaust springs?

 

Holy Cow! No wonder they charge so much. Some things there aren't needed and others can be purchased locally.

Carb overhaul isn't needed, fire sleeve is re-usable. 

In my case my fire sleeves are burnt or very dry by now. Looks like Lockwood should make a more up to date list!

[Roger Lee]

Lockwood's list is for a car engine plus they've added a few extra items.

[Animosity2k]

This is the list that LEAF sent over to me just a moment ago. It's for a 912iS with the Sport engine upgrade. 

912iS Sport Five Year Rubber Replacement Parts List RH.doc

[Roger Lee]

WOW, Quite a list. I've never seen  or heard of anyone change all those items.

Things like the oil tank"O" ring (Why), valve cover "O" rings, expansion tank cap (Why), expansion tank rubber pad, copper sealing ring, replacing fire sleeve (Why)  and 1-2 others. I'd like to hear a sound scientific evidence based PROVEN reason for some of these.

[Animosity2k]

18 minutes ago, Roger Lee said:

WOW, Quite a list. I've never seen  or heard of anyone change all those items.

Things like the oil tank"O" ring (Why), valve cover "O" rings, expansion tank cap (Why), expansion tank rubber pad, copper sealing ring, replacing fire sleeve (Why)  and 1-2 others. I'd like to hear a sound scientific evidence based PROVEN reason for some of these.

Don't shoot the messenger  I'm just trying to build a list of what I need to order. Really wish they just had a kit, make my life much easier. 

[Tom Baker]

15 hours ago, Roger Lee said:

WOW, Quite a list. I've never seen  or heard of anyone change all those items.

Things like the oil tank"O" ring (Why), valve cover "O" rings, expansion tank cap (Why), expansion tank rubber pad, copper sealing ring, replacing fire sleeve (Why)  and 1-2 others. I'd like to hear a sound scientific evidence based PROVEN reason for some of these.

Maybe because Rotax says they should be replaced. 

Oil tank O-rings I do on condition, but I have seen them deformed from over tightening the clamp.

I always replace the rocker O-rings at the rubber replacement after performing the pressure purge, and checking the lifters. If they are not replaced they become hard and will not seal well. The worst rocker cover O-rings I have seen came off of your old airplane Roger. I am not saying it was your fault, because the airplane was lacking in maintenance after you sold it. I suspect they had not been replaced since you installed the new engine 10 years ago. They were hard as a rock and broke when removing them from the groove.

The expansion tank pad probably doesn't need replaced every 5 years, but at 10 they are starting to crack. At 15 years they are broken and falling apart.

I replace copper sealing rings anytime they are removed. This is standard practice within the aviation industry. Every time they are tightened down they are squished and deformed. Plus they will work harden. 

[Roger Lee]

It's like many things in life. There are more than one way to accomplish a task, but in the end you either get to the same ending or the difference made no difference.

That said I'm on my out to the field for my 8th hose change since Oct. and today is a Savanna high wing. 

I'm a science fact base and research guy. I don't believe everything some people or Mfg's say. If I don't know or just want to test things because it doesn't seem to fit the physics I do a fact based research on it. I've had several Mfg's change things or admit they just did it because they didn't want to test it or worried about liability.

Rotax says things that aren't always accurate because they never tested it. Like how low can fuel pressure be below their 2.2 psi. There are several others things I showed them after testing, but will never be published. Kind of like you can only use up to 10% ethanol. That limit is because that's all they tested. Other countries in the world use far more than that and have no issues.

I've never had to replace an expansion tank rubber pad. None have ever cracked. I have had a few where the ring that slips over the tank fitting breaks, but I just silicone the pad to the bottom of the tank. I have engines out there with over 2K+ hours like this and never an issue.

I quit checking the lifters. I do two oil purges and the way I do it generates 50-55 psi as I rotate the prop and I get really good oil flow. I go above and beyond the way Rotax does it. Since 2008 I have never had a soft lifter doing it this way.

The oil tank "O" ring clamp has a limit and it's not a compression squeeze, but a horizontal one regulated by the circumference of the oil tank. If you find a deformed one that's because someone didn't seat and install it right and it got caught in the two lips coming together.

What are we trying to do? Just don't have a leak after you're done. If a new washer or a used one has no leak then mission accomplished. I re-use the oil tank crush washer 6 times. I have never had a leak when properly torqued and most of the owners I know re-use them too. I know Rotax would like them changed every time. Remember that Rotax will publish things just for liability and CYA.

Another example: Even though Rotax publishes 5500 WOT continuous max and 5800 max those aren't the real numbers tested. 

[Tom Baker]

Roger, 

How do you choose what to follow, and what not to follow? Is it only when it suits you?

CFR 91.327 says, 

No person may operate an aircraft that has a special airworthiness certificate in the light-sport category unless -

(1) The aircraft is maintained by a certificated repairman with a light-sport aircraft maintenance rating, an appropriately rated mechanic, or an appropriately rated repair station in accordance with the applicable provisions of part 43 of this chapter and maintenance and inspection procedures developed by the aircraft manufacturer or a person acceptable to the FAA;

I am fairly certain that your procedures are not acceptable to the FAA. That means if you don't follow the procedure for the oil change and replace the crush gasket, a $1.71 part, every flight the customer makes is in violation of the regulations. Are you that willing to put your customers at risk over a $1.71 part? I am not willing to put my customers at risk over not following procedures developed by the manufacture.

My parts list is not as exhaustive as Leading Edge's, but I certainly replace some of the items you are suggesting don't need replaced. Here is my list that I put together off an old work order.

Rotax Parts List for 912iS Rubber Replacement.docx

[Animosity2k]

I appreciate everyones help and lists! Have a few parts that LEAF / Lockwood doesn't sell that I have some questions on, see below:

So I have a few questions on some of the other parts:

1) Band it clamps. Aircraft Spruce carries 3 part#s and sizes (see link below) do you know which one is correct? Also 28 of these is the correct amount I need? https://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/appages/eatonclamps_900591B5C.php?clickkey=3213469

2) Is this the correct Gascolator gasket (10536-1 replacement gasket)

https://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/eppages/acs_06-00441.php

3) The entire quick drain valve (CCA1550) is only $15. Is this the better route to go then getting a seal for it? Mine has had a slight leak for some time as is. 

4) Lastly, fuel sight tube. Any particular size? When I search it on AS I see this as the first result, will it work?

https://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/mepages/pvcpipe.php?clickkey=62825

Thanks in advance appreciate all this help more then you know! 

[Roger Lee]

Hi Tom,

"My parts list is not as exhaustive as Leading Edge's"

This would mean you're as guilty as me.

If you leave out just one part like you have stated in your explanation then you'd be just as un-airworthy as me. There is no person that I have ever known that complies with every single item on every plane. Nobody is absolutely 100%. Someone doesn't do something or leaves something out on all planes some time.

That said even logbook entries are illegal many times, but yet they are there.

"That means if you don't follow the procedure for the oil change and replace the crush gasket, a $1.71 part, every flight the customer makes is in violation of the regulations."

"Are you that willing to put your customers at risk over a $1.71 part? "

You and I both know there is no risk if your oil tank crush washer oozed a tad of oil. It doesn't drain the system and you should have seen an ooze / leak before you handed the plane back.

This means most LSA are not legal because most don't replace the crush washer unless it leaks. Certainly some do, but the majority don't.

If I reported every single error I found when a plane comes in here that had something wrong I'd have to report everyone owners and mechanics. Nobody does everything the same as the next person.

Funny thing is since 1983  I've never had a plane go down especially from a crush washer or "O" ring. I base my decisions on proven facts not supposition or hearsay. Even Rotax doesn't get it right at times.

You should see some of the Rotax main Service centers work.

Rotax doesn't want header wrap on exhaust pipes (an SB), but Rotec in Canada the main distributor uses it and applies it to Stemme motor gliders which come that way from the factory. They just broke the law.

[Anticept]

I find that those gascolators don't have deep enough threads tapped. I have a thread tapping kit and I deepened mine a little. As it comes from factory, the gasket rubs against the threads when it opens and closes, and I have pulled out many that have gasket damage, leading to those leaks. It's really not a good gascolator design all things considered, but it's not bad either. After tapping, the rubber gasket clears the threads just fine and I get a much better flow.

If your valve is leaking, grab a replacement valve. Not worth buying the gaskets anymore.

[Roger Lee]

Tom,

I have another problem with doing things only one way.

I just got a Savannah plane that comes from Italy. The hoses are not rubber , but metal flex ribbed tubing. The oil line is only 3/8" ID. Do I make the owner change because it isn't to Rotax spec? The fuel hose is also metal flex tubing and only 1/4" which is less than the minimum 5/16" designated from Rotax. Do I make him change that? The fuel hose metal tubing is in some kind of covering, but not fire sleeve. Do I force him to change that. 

This is all factory standard.

Bottom line where does everyone stop.

[Jim Meade]

 

[Roger Lee]

My point to all this below is to show everyone picks what they want to follow and if you don't do exactly what's in the manual then you stated that the plane is un-airworthy and we are risking the owner. How do the Rotax service centers go well beyond what's in the manual and try to dictate what you have to do. More big money for them. 

They are including all "O" rings like the oil tank. Where does it say that?. Where does it say replace crush washers if you don't remove them then they haven't been disturbed. I don't remove any of them so they aren't disturbed. Where does it say replace the fire sleeve like on the Leading Edge list? Where does it say expansion tank cap. This is usually an on condition item. On the 912iS list for replacement items where does it say rubber sockets on the air intake? So these folks have added what ever they wanted. More money for them. They used to have rubber engine mounts in the 912ULS time limited parts replacement, but in the new editions they took it out. Does that mean we don't have to do them anymore and it's not in the 912iS time limited parts either.

Here's what it says to replace in the 912iS maint. manual:

TIME LIMIT FOR PARTS for the 912iS
General note
ATTENTION
This time limit must be followed independently and in addition to the visual inspections
(see Chapter 05-20-00 section: Visual Inspection) of the respective
components.
Time limit The following components and systems must be replaced every 5 years:
• All rubber hoses of the cooling system (except GENUINE ROTAX® silicon hoses),
which need to be checked by "on-condition" maintenance according to the instructions
of continued airworthiness.
• All rubber hoses of the fuel system
• All rubber hoses of the lubrication system which are part of the engine supply volume
and if they are not in the maintenance schedule of aircraft manufacturer
• Connecting hose of the air intake system
• V-belt

TIME LIMIT FOR THE COOLANT
General note Coolant must be replaced as per manufacturers instructions, at the latest during overhaul
or when the engine is replaced. 

Since it says you can wait until TBO to change coolant would you do that. How many years might that be?

Remember when you said  we don't do 100 hr. inspections. If you are going to do what Rotax says about hose change or what's posted in the manual then you have to follow this in the manual.

ANNUAL INSPECTION
General note A 100 hr. inspection is to be carried out periodically after every 100 hours of operation or
every 12 months,, whichever comes first.
See Chapter 05-20-00 section Scheduled maintenance checks.

[Roger Lee]

If you think what I posted above is crazy wait until I take some pictures of the Savannah airplane (Italian)  Rotax engine that just came in for a hose change. I've never seen anything like it.

[procharger]

Roger could put together hose change kits and sell them how about it Roger????

[Tom Baker]

14 hours ago, Roger Lee said:

"My parts list is not as exhaustive as Leading Edge's"

This would mean you're as guilty as me.

No, and let me tell you why.

The regulations say it is procedures that must be followed, and specifically the aircraft manufactures procedures. Flight Design for the engine says to refer to the Rotax manuals for inspection and maintenance. So if you are performing maintenance like an oil change you must follow Rotax's procedures. If you are performing a pressure purge, you must follow Rotax procedures. Any maintenance that is performed on the engine, Rotax procedures must be followed. If a procedure calls for replacing a part, replace the part. If you are replacing a part follow the procedure for replacing the part. Choosing not to replace a Rotax part that is not part of a procedure is not contrary to the regulations, unless Flight Design specifically says it needs to be replaced. I try to follow the procedures to the best of my ability. I replace parts when the procedures I'm performing say they need to be replaced. Also you need to be careful how you word logbook entries to make sure you don't say you did something that you didn't do.

All of your ranting about aircraft manufactures not following Rotax does not fall on the mechanic, or the pilot. The aircraft manufacture can do what they want. They take on the responsibility for what they do. It is not our job to make changes to the aircraft without approval from the aircraft manufacture, even if you think it goes against what Rotax says. 

[Roger Lee]

Hi Tom,

I'm enjoying our debate. This is how we all learn.  

You still didn't answer my questions in my last post on where many things on the Leading Edge are not listed in the Rotax manual to replace, but you're advocating they need to be. Please post the sentence or paragraph from the Rotax manual that says these things have to be replaced.

"Choosing not to replace a Rotax part that is not part of a procedure is not contrary to the regulations, unless Flight Design specifically says it needs to be replaced."

You still haven't shown me where it says change the rubber pad under the expansion tank, "O" ring in the oil tank, Rubber socket on the 912is, replace fire sleeve, ect...

The aircraft manufacture can do what they want."

No they can't. They have rules and regs to follow too. They can't give away the farm or place demands more than FAA allows. I know I've corrected 2-3 MFG's manuals and they made the changes.

You say follow the Rotax manual and you say FD says follow the Rotax manual, but you also say you don't have to do 100 HR. inspections (in a previous post), but it's right there in the Rotax maint. manual that FD says to follow. As I quoted right out of the Rotax manual you have to do 100 hr. inspections. So why aren't you doing these.

Remember when you said  we don't do 100 hr. inspections. If you are going to do what Rotax says about hose change or what's posted in the manual then you have to follow this in the manual."

"So if you are performing maintenance like an oil change you must follow Rotax's procedures."

So you're saying there isn't more that one way to skin a cat?

Just like you mentioned about following the Rotax oil purge procedure. Did you know there is more than one way they use?

Your picking and choosing just like all mechanics and owners do and have done for a hundred years. We all do it whether we want to admit it or not or we just don't know how, why and what.

I have never seen a plane come into the shop I can't find things wrong with that someone else did either knowingly or not.

 

[Tom Baker]

Roger, it may be a couple days before I can attempt a formal reply, I have to go do 5 glider inspections tomorrow,  and maybe Sunday.

[Roger Lee]

No issue here. I'm in the middle of an annual / hose change on an Italian Savannah. It has metal flex hoses and undersized fuel and oil flex lines.

[Jacques]

8 hours ago, Roger Lee said:

No issue here. I'm in the middle of an annual / hose change on an Italian Savannah. It has metal flex hoses and undersized fuel and oil flex lines.

yep,,always found strange those Savannah hoses...waiting for your comments Roger...and pictures  thx

[Animosity2k]

I'm just happy I was able to get a decent parts list!  

[Animosity2k]

Anyone know what size the fire sleeve is?