Stall warning horn

[PhilT]

I'm very new to the CT world so have a question that might be very obvious to all.

Mine is a 2006 CTSW. I have seen no signs of a stall warning horn and am wondering if they just don't exist without the installation of a Dynon/Garmin and AOA pitot?

 

Thanks

Phil

[FredG]

Phil, what avionics do you have in your CTsw?  My 2006 CTsw has a Dynon D100 EFIS which has AOA capability once calibrated.  I am not aware that the airframe has any stall warning system separate from avionics.

[Towner]

My 2006, with a Dynon D100, does not have a stall warning either, only AOA.

[Anticept]

D100 has an audio output that has to be wired up to make the alarm audible. There's also a menu configuration to turn on the alarm noise.

[FlyingMonkey]

When I first got my CT a decade ago I thought it should have a stall indication.  After flying it a couple of months I realized it doesn't really need one.  The CT gives lots of cues to the pilot of an impending stall and is so docile in the stall, that it's not really necessary.  AoA might be nice to keep you out of trouble, but if you're even half awake in the pattern you'll never get even close to the stall.

I think if you just fly conservatively until you learn all the airplane's quirks, and you stay on your speed numbers for landing you won't have any problems and will never miss having a stall horn. 

[Madhatter]

You don't need a stall warning in a CT or most other aircraft. If a stall warning surprises you in an aircraft you probably shouldn't be flying any aircraft. Most stall warning systems in GA aircraft are mediocre anyway. If you hear a stall warning in most high performance GA aircraft it's just letting you know to kiss your butt goodby.

[tevbax]

1 hour ago, Madhatter said:

You don't need a stall warning in a CT or most other aircraft. If a stall warning surprises you in an aircraft you probably shouldn't be flying any aircraft. Most stall warning systems in GA aircraft are mediocre anyway. If you hear a stall warning in most high performance GA aircraft it's just letting you know to kiss your butt goodby.

I don't think I agree with this. This system is designed as a warning before you really mess things up. Say you're on your departure leg and are attention focused on something else (engine RPM/ Alternator output/ oil pressure) and neglect your vx/vy speed and get slow. A warning would give you the opportunity to drop the nose and quickly refocus your attention back to something thats actively trying to kill you. 

I will not disagree with it being mediocre. 

 

[Anticept]

When properly calibrated it's actually pretty accurate with dynon units.

[Madhatter]

1 hour ago, tevbax said:

I don't think I agree with this. This system is designed as a warning before you really mess things up. Say you're on your departure leg and are attention focused on something else (engine RPM/ Alternator output/ oil pressure) and neglect your vx/vy speed and get slow. A warning would give you the opportunity to drop the nose and quickly refocus your attention back to something thats actively trying to kill you. 

I will not disagree with it 

You should never be close to inadvertent stall inflight ever. A lot of certified older aircraft do not have stall warning systems. If you hear a surprise stall warning in a twin or other high performance aircraft you really messed up bad and probably should not be flying. In 55years of flying I have never heard a stall warning go off in flight except in training or in a flare. 

[PhilT]

Thanks All!

So I guess that confirms that the CT does not come with a stall warning system unless it came with something like a Dynon.

I do have the Dynon HDX system but the pitot is just the simple ram air type that came with the plane.

Dynon tells me that I require their AOA pitot setup to use the Dynon AOA. I have (from the previous owner) a flight design AOA heated pitot (if anyone wants to purchase it) that would need to be retrofit into the wing and apparently it won't work with the Dynon anyway.

I have practiced stalls of course and understand just how docile the CTSW is in a stall. That said, I suppose it could be deceptive in that I could (dummly) hold it in a stall all the way to the ground if I wasn't paying attention to the Altimeter. 

I'm not certain it's worth putting the thousands to install this into the plane for just the AOA so I suppose the heated pitot tube might be the deciding factor (previous owner mentioned a couple icing incidences) 

Thanks again,

Phil

 

 

[FlyingMonkey]

1 hour ago, PhilT said:

Thanks All!

So I guess that confirms that the CT does not come with a stall warning system unless it came with something like a Dynon.

I do have the Dynon HDX system but the pitot is just the simple ram air type that came with the plane.

Dynon tells me that I require their AOA pitot setup to use the Dynon AOA. I have (from the previous owner) a flight design AOA heated pitot (if anyone wants to purchase it) that would need to be retrofit into the wing and apparently it won't work with the Dynon anyway.

I have practiced stalls of course and understand just how docile the CTSW is in a stall. That said, I suppose it could be deceptive in that I could (dummly) hold it in a stall all the way to the ground if I wasn't paying attention to the Altimeter. 

I'm not certain it's worth putting the thousands to install this into the plane for just the AOA so I suppose the heated pitot tube might be the deciding factor (previous owner mentioned a couple icing incidences) 

Thanks again,

Phil

 

 

I went through this when I first got my CT.  In fact you can probably go back and find posts by me asking about adding the Dynon AoA pitot system.  In the end I determined it's a very expensive systems to add, and Flight Design in Germany wanted an "engineering study" costing a few thousands of dollars just to come up with a procedure for adding the new pitot system, and then the cost of the parts and labor would come on top of that.

In the end I determined the cost was not worth it, and that it was better to just become as proficient as possible in the airplane and pay extra attention when stalls could have critical consequences (as you should anyway).  IMO, those thousands are better spent in additional flight hours in the airplane becoming a stronger CT pilot.

Good luck whatever you decide...it's a great airplane either way!

[PhilT]

Thanks for the good advice Andy. Makes sense.

Cheers

 

 

[Jim Meade]

I have the Flight Design heated pitot in my 2007 CTSW and it is hooked through the ADAHRS to the dual Dynon SkyView DT1000 and works well.  I had to run new vacuum hoses to the pitot and if I remember they were 4mm rather than the original 5mm.  It was a nuisance but certainly doable because I did it several years ago.  I did it once when I had the wing off for something else.   I no longer use the old static port on the belly of the CT.  The heated pitot fits right in the socket the old one comes out of.  There are pictures of my installation on this site.

I have AOA calibrated to sound an audio warning as it gets into the red on the AOA.  

When I was flying small jets, we used AOA, not IAS, especially for approaches.  The Dynon AOA display is buried in the panel and not as useful, but I do refer to it sometimes.

In your position, I would connect the heated pitot and calibrate the AOA, but of course there are plenty of CTs flying without it so do whatever you prefer.

 

 

 

[Towner]

I thought I would, but now I don’t miss a stall warning at all. Even the AOA. In fact, I calibrated the AOA when I first got the plane. After some changes, I needed to calibrate it again, but didn’t even bother. I never looked at it when it was calibrated the first time.

[Towner]

On 4/26/2023 at 9:24 AM, Anticept said:

When properly calibrated it's actually pretty accurate with dynon units.

I think I asked about this before, but maybe you know. I have the d100/180 set up. No sound output from the system, even though the audio on the D100 is on. Also, the audio input jack is missing and looks like there was never one mounted. I’m assuming the wiring was never set up for audio?

Also, mine has the PS 501 intercom, which seems to be a step down from most. The intercom manual says it will mute audio input during intercom use, but won’t mute during radio reception. This makes me wonder if I should even bother trying to wire any audible input in the first place?

Just fyi, I have an older Bose A20 headset without Bluetooth. I bought a little Bluetooth thingy on Amazon for $16. I plugged it up to the headset input. I linked the Bluetooth to my iPad for music and foreflight. Works great, but for making phone calls, not so well. Phone calls uses the mic on the Bluetooth receiver, not the headset, which makes it hard for the other party to hear your phone call due to engine and wind noise. Anyway, if you don’t have Bluetooth but have an audio input on your headset, $16 will give you Bluetooth!

[Anticept]

There are only a music wiring pins on the 501. The PM3000 has unswitched audio meant for things like stall warnings.

You could install a simple speaker to give yourself audio warnings.

[Anticept]

On 4/26/2023 at 1:31 PM, Madhatter said:

You should never be close to inadvertent stall inflight ever. A lot of certified older aircraft do not have stall warning systems. If you hear a surprise stall warning in a twin or other high performance aircraft you really messed up bad and probably should not be flying. In 55years of flying I have never heard a stall warning go off in flight except in training or in a flare. 

I agree people shouldn't be close to a stall.

But man, I want you to think of what an "average" pilot is, and remember half of them are worse than this.

It's amazing how people will tune out stall horns and I have to be ready to slap em. Mostly students of course and I say that cheekily, but I've seen people with some time do it before too on a landing approach and I wonder what they would do if they did not have that buzzer...

[Towner]

2 hours ago, Anticept said:

There are only a music wiring pins on the 501. The PM3000 has unswitched audio meant for things like stall warnings.

You could install a simple speaker to give yourself audio warnings.

Thanks.

[sandpiper]

Mine doesn't have AOA or stall warning and I don't miss them.

Some on this forum talk about how benign the CT stall is and how someone would need to be near brain dead (my words) to accidentally stall the CT. I agree.

Then Corey referenced the average pilot and I got to thinking about the double fatality about a year ago in a CTSW I think. The accident was caught on security cameras that showed a go around with little altitude gain then a wing drop and that was the end for the man and his wife.

Did this plane have AOA/stall warning and, if not, would these devices have saved them?

I haven't seen the final NTSB report or if it is even out yet. Should be an informative read.

[Madhatter]

FAA statistics show the greatest cause of GA accidents is loss of control. A lot occur during the descending turn to final where there is no chance of recovery.  I am surprised at how many pilots don't understand the aerodynamics of this type of stall and even some instructors. At 500 feet this type of instantaneous stall is unrecoverable. A stall warning in most cases will probably not help in this stall.

Edited May 1, 2023 by Madhatter
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