Find it very hard to land this bird.

[dasflughusen]

Hi guys, I am a new student working on the license, I'm not learning this full time, I have to wait for a long time before having a long vacation available for me to learn to fly. The pattern is like 10 hours per year on one big vacation...

When I fly this CTLS, especially on final, I feel the plane seems like a fish swinging from left to right, after my rudder work and fixing alignment, the plane won't stay on the centerline for more than 5 seconds, it will slide to one side. I feel I am on a very slippery road. I flew Cessna 172 before, and I didn't felt an 172 slide like CTLS.

The second part of my problem is I tend to be fast and high on final. The method taught by the instructor is 63~65kts approach with 15 degrees of flap. They said that for beginners, fly few knots than 1.3 Vso is safer. And, In autumn and winter, the engine is more powerful, when I exit from the 4th turn to the final, I tend to be 10~20 meters higher and 3~4 kts faster, so if I pitch down, the aircraft goes faster, sometimes it can reach 70 kts on final. I tried to retract thrust level to reach 2400 rpm but it looks like the plane is still accelerating.

And then there is the 3rd problem, I tend to be fast on runway threshold. Usually 65kts there, then when I start to flare, it is likely that my first pull will balloon the plane, and then the plane will sink so fast that I cannot response with a proper flare pull and the plane sit on the runway heavilly.

When all these factors combined I sometimes feel that I cannot sense the sinking unless the plane is sinking very fast.

 

 

[DJ Todd B]

You cannot force these light sport airplanes, especially the CTs to land. ALL of the airspeed must be bled off before the landings will "stick" . Keep "slowing" the plane down until you feel the landings stick and that will be your target airspeed.  Mine is "over the numbers" at 60 (15 Deg Flaps) then hold it off until it kisses the runway or drops in.

Try this approach and keep us posted on your progress.

[Tom Baker]

#1- A quiet stick makes for a happy airplane. If the airplane is fish tailing it is because you are moving the control stick to much side to side without having you feet in time with the movement. The less you move the stick, the better things will be.

#2- If you are high on final, there are several ways to fix it, but pushing the nose down is not one of them, and actually makes things worse. To steepen your glide path you need to slow down. Increase your rate of descent by slowing below best glide speed, and this will also slow the rate you are traveling across the ground. This will steepen the angle that you are coming down. While pushing the nose down may increase the rate of descent it will also increase your speed across the ground, and not create a significant decrease in angle of descent. On top of that you will have to figure a way to decrease the speed at a time where you need to be concentrating on other things. 

One of the ways to be lower on final is to fly a slightly larger pattern. Typically the traffic pattern is 1000 feet. If you determine your rate of descent you can figure how long it will take to descend from 1000 feet. if you are flying at 60, then your distance that you need to cover to make your descent will be equal to the time it takes to descend. Plan you pattern so you will be traveling that distance. Of course there will be variations to this based on wind, but it is a good starting point.

#3- Ballooning is caused by increasing the angle of attack to quickly without allowing the speed to decay. You can not move the stick aft as quickly as when you speed is faster than it should be. By comparison if you are slow the aft movement must be quicker.

As a side I tell all of my students that learning to land is the hardest thing to do in an airplane, and the critical part of what you need to learn only happens for about 20 seconds with each landing. that means 180 landing equals one hour of the critical practice needed to learn the task.

[Towner]

This is a pretty common question asked from pilots new to the CT series. Do a search on the forum and you’ll find a ton of great responses from experienced CT pilots. A few different styles are used also.

But one thing I feel pretty confident in saying is that you are way to fast! Remember, this thing probably stalls much slower than anything else you may fly. Depending on loading, winds, etc, I’m usually about 48-50 on short final (30 degrees of flaps for me). Some guys are slower.

Read some of the prior posts for great things to try. If your instructor is uncomfortable with the slower speeds or various methods, have him read it too. Each airplane is a little different, so check your indicated speeds at altitude first. Then do some experimenting in the flair and in ground effect. 

If your instructor isn’t very familiar with the CT, simply send him up with an experienced CT pilot for 30 minutes.

Have fun!

[FlyingMonkey]

63-65kt is pretty fast at 15° flaps.  Try 55-60kt and see if that helps.

The CTs are much more "tail happy" than a 172 and you have to more actively manage the rudder.  Also the fact that you can't see the cowl sometimes "fools" people into thinking they are aligned when they're really not.  The "sliding side to side" might be a simple sight picture error.  I agree with Tom...you might make a lot of tiny corrections on your way to the runway, but unless it's very gusty they should be very small and more slight pressure than large movements.  You could be over-controlling which is very common for new pilots, especially in very light airplanes.

What does your instructor say about your technique?

[Jim Meade]

I teach that on final, the stick is to keep the airplane on the runway centerline (that may mean you are in a slight bank if there is a crosswind) and the rudder is to keep the airplane nose pointed straight ahead.  Therefore, on final, the stick and rudder are often not in sync.  You are often in a slight slip.

The throttle controls altitude.  If you want to go down, retard the throttle.  If you want to climb, advance the throttle.  As Tom says, the worst thing to do when you are descending is to "point the nose down".  

Know where the wind is in the pattern and decide how you must compensate for it to fly your desired pattern.  You may have to crab some headings, turn early or late and modify power settings to come out at the desired point on the runway.

If you have a long enough runway consider trying to establish a consistent, stabilized approach and nowtworry about where you land.  After you know what settings result in a good landing, you can modify some settings to adjust the landing spot to where you want it.  This reduces the urge to point the nose down or fiddle with the throttle until you become comfortable with the stabilized approach.

The way to control ballooning is to be patient in changing the angle of attack.  Pull the stick back ever so slightly until you are sure you are "rounded out" flying just above the ground.  As you feel the seat sink beneath you, compensate by adding the right amount of back pressure.  In my opinion, you should be at zero power at this time.  I guess some say some power is OK but it is not to me.

When all is said and done, when I turn final I pick a spot on the runway and see if it moves toward me (under the airplane) or away from me.  I adjust power to make the spot stay still.  If it's coming under the plane, I pull power and hold or maybe even increase pitch.  If it's going away I add power and probably slightly decrease pitch.  You seem to be watching numbers.  On final, I don't watch many numbers.  My eyes are outside.

 

[FlyingMonkey]

3 minutes ago, Towner said:

But one thing I feel pretty confident in saying is that you are way to fast! Remember, this thing probably stalls much slower than anything else you may fly. Depending on loading, winds, etc, I’m usually about 48-50 on short final (30 degrees of flaps for me). Some guys are slower.

I do tend to agree with this.  When I first started learning my instructor had me use 60kt at 15°, and later reduced to 55kt.  I think that's an okay place to start when learning, but 60kt is still going to be fast and lead to long landings if you hold off properly.  Like Towner I use 48-50kt at 30° flaps on final, but I also have about 2000 CT landings so I'm not going to recommend that for a new pilot.  55-60kt is a good introductory number at 15°...just remember you have to take that extra speed out before touching down by holding off at the bottom.

The good news in that the CT is very docile, and even if you get very slow and into some very high sink rates (which happens in my CTSW around 45kt at 30°), it's easy to correct with power and pitch, as long as you stay roughly coordinated.

[Madhatter]

If you place a strip of tape on the glare shield from the pilots visual center from the left seat straight to the windshield,  parallel to the aircraft centerline it will help keep the plane straight relative to the runway centerline. The CT has a very short nose length so if you center the nose in front of you, the aircraft will touch down at a significant angle to the centerline.  It will help remind you on landing until you get used to it. 

[Tom Baker]

4 hours ago, FlyingMonkey said:

  When I first started learning my instructor had me use 60kt at 15°, and later reduced to 55kt.  I think that's an okay place to start when learning, but 60kt is still going to be fast and lead to long landings if you hold off properly.  

1000 plus hours of CT time, and having taught several people to fly in a CT, I don't necessarily agree with this. Maybe it is just the way I do it, but I can fly an approach with 15° flaps and 60kts down final and still touch down where I want at very near stall speed. I have always been one to use a more gradual round out starting maybe 30 or more feet above the runway surface instead of going right down to within a couple feet of the ground before rounding out.  

[Towner]

51 minutes ago, Madhatter said:

If you place a strip of tape on the glare shield from the pilots visual center from the left seat straight to the windshield,  parallel to the aircraft centerline it will help keep the plane straight relative to the runway centerline. The CT has a very short nose length so if you center the nose in front of you, the aircraft will touch down at a significant angle to the centerline.  It will help remind you on landing until you get used to it. 

X2. Took me awhile to get the centerline of the airplane straight in my head.

[kinoons]

The CTSW I trained in had the peice of tape on the windscreen and this helped greatly. 

I also agree that you’re likely fast when trying to land the aircraft. I learned very early how to forward slip the aircraft, sometimes fairly aggressively, to bleed airspeed and altitude on final if I was high and fast (distance from the fence allowing. If too close just go around). 

[CTSW Bob]

Coming from a 172 and 182, my CTSW was a nervous little plane.  I’ve grown to love it and now think those Cessnas are heavy tanks, and not in a good way.  I’ll take my CT over any Cessna and I just bought a 172 yesterday to fix up.  
 

My instructor said to look at my legs and point them down the taxiway and runway.  The dash is curved and hard to line up.  
 

I use 54 over the numbers, 15 degrees flaps most of the time, and just a hair of power.  No need to stall the plane on touch down and risk abusing it when the shortest runway I’ve landed at is almost 3,000 feet.  
 

Your mileage may vary….

 

[dasflughusen]

On 9/29/2023 at 12:36 PM, DJ Todd B said:

You cannot force these light sport airplanes, especially the CTs to land. ALL of the airspeed must be bled off before the landings will "stick" . Keep "slowing" the plane down until you feel the landings stick and that will be your target airspeed.  Mine is "over the numbers" at 60 (15 Deg Flaps) then hold it off until it kisses the runway or drops in.

Try this approach and keep us posted on your progress.

Hello DJ

Thanks for the response, and every gentlemen replying the thread.

I am training on a 800-meter-long runway.

 

1.I worked on the use of rudder and it improves the centerline alignment during approach. It works but I still feel the difficulty

2. For the second problem, "high and fast", I tried to dive more during the base leg and it provides me with a better glide angle. And I find that in autumn and winter when atmospheric pressure is high, and if I am at 67~68 kts at early final, I may very likely need to set the throttle and idle and then increase it during the lower half stage of the approach (to make sure I still have power when I am on runway). 

And now my instructor still insist a 65 kts approach on the upper half stage, but I now reduce that speed to 60 kts for the lower half stage anyway, I made him to accept the fact that I am doing 60 kts anyway.

They agree that flying slower than 65 kts will not give me a negative AoA so my nose wheel won't touch the ground first. However, they are still very sensitive to the speed starting with a "5", they said when you see your airspeed is like fifty-what, increase throttle immediately, no hesitation at all.

I have an experience of approach at 57 kts at the fence of the airport, and I am already idle because I retract throttle back during the higher upper half approach, and my instructor said that I was sinking veryfast on runway threshold and he has to make a big pull to level the plane to start the flare. After talking with other experienced pilots they said "if I aimed at a 60kts final, you have to make sure you are not in idle power. So If you come in high and fast and retract throttle to achieve a  60 kts final, don't forget to push the throttle to make the plane won't sink too fast and lower half, and increase the RPM aggresively."

 

3.After approaching slower, I found that it is harder to balloon (at least not that much), because with my normal stick pulling, the aircraft won't rise a lot.

I plan to fly for a few more times these days, and I will update my progress tomorrow.. 

Till today, I think approaching at 60 kts at the very final gives me a good starting point. I also let my instructor fly a flare height pass so I see and remember the flaring height for a longer time. When I practice landing, I can get a positive AoA, firm landing (I cannot do kiss landing for now), but my landing AoA is kinda still small and my nose wheel touch ground very soon after main gear.

 

And thank you all for replying me this thread. I've read all your paragraphs and that inspired me a lot.

 

 

 

 

 

[Madhatter]

I am curious if they solved the stall in flare on the F2, I'm told they did but we'll see.

[Towner]

I still like 55 on final with 30 flaps, power only as needed, then 48-50 on short final. Still gives me plenty of flare and round out.

As far as firm landings, it may not be what you think. I couldn’t get a smooth landing forever until I finally realized I still wasn’t straight down the runway! Even after reading everything about having to adjust the sight angle, I still wasn’t doing it enough. You really have to change your view to get it straight and just a little off will feel a little rough on touchdown.

Somebody mentioned using your legs as a guide to help keep you straight down the runway. I think that I’ve read that the pilot and passenger seats are angled slightly towards the center of the airplane, so this might not work too. 

Find someone who owns a CT and go do some pattern work with them. Bet they can fix your problem. Andy and I seem to like slower speeds, while others like it a little faster. I would bet that anyone flying a CT regularly can comfortably demonstrate various speed and flap settings. If you own a CT, half the fun is landing and exploring different techniques.

Once you figure it out, you’ll love it. You’ll feel safe and competent, but landing a 172 will become boring.

[EricB]

I have to weigh in here.  The POH is pretty clear about landing speeds and conditions.  I would hope that it would be the go-to source for most operating questions but it seems often disregarded.  The POH recommends 30-35 flaps only "with experience and training" and states a similar caution for crosswind and gusty conditions.  Since dasflughusen notes he is in the early learning stage, experience would be at a minimum.  I transitioned to the CTLS (not SW, again there are differences) with over 40 years of flying experience.  However, it does not fly like a 172 and certainly does not land like one.  First I had to "unlearn" some bad habits and get the new sight picture in my head.  Second, speed and altitude management is paramount; it is difficult to undo a poor approach and the result is usually a long float down the runway to bleed off speed (in a near level attitude) before touchdown.  The 63-65 kts is a good speed for a beginner as you turn to final - I was also taught that way.  You bleed that off by power reductions as you come down.  The book says short final should be 54 kts but even 60 over the threshold is manageable.  Your runway length isn't generous so you might want to practice at long runways so you can float long seeing how to manage your speed and altitude.  I worked down from 1500 m runways to 700 during my transition training.  The CTLS is not the easiest plane to fly but don't be discouraged; many people fly them safely.  

[Towner]

For the SW, the original POH showed much higher airspeeds for landing, but a flight training supplement came out (revised in 2008) showing 54 for final and specifically states slower speeds may be used with experience.

I think we all know these are poorly written as the original POH shows 54 for final, but the landing speeds higher than the speeds for final! Seems to be corrected in the supplement by only listing a final speed and no landing speed.

As for flaps, The original POH shows “As desired” or something similar and 40 degrees for short field. The training supplement states 15-40 degrees of flaps for landing with no short field mentioned.

The supplement also says turns shouldn’t be made over 30 degrees at below 54 knots. I do agree that I have more speed during my turn to base and final than that.

Anyway, the book says 54 on final in both versions. Try it. Probably with 30 degrees of flaps at first.

[Tom Baker]

I have been involved with Flight Design since 2007, as an owner, dealer, flight instructor, and maintenance provider. I had the opportunity take part in designing the transition training supplement in 2010. Back in the early days of the CT pilots transitioning from other heavier airplanes to the CT had issues because they tried to fly them like their old 172/182, Cherokee, or Bonanza. There were many damaged airplanes. I even remember the CTLS demo airplane having a gear leg get cracked at Sebring Expo when two young flight instructors tried to do a full flap landing on the short runway with a significant cross wind. They did have a gear leg overnighted, and it was flying the next morning.

Flight Design's chief flight instructor back then stated that start with 15° flaps for landing, and after that your flap setting should not be greater than the hours of experience you have in the airplane. I don't know that I would go that far, but it is not a bad rule of thumb.

[Towner]

I certainly could be wrong, but it sounds like Dasflughasen’s instructor is new to the CT series also and that he hasn’t figured it out. Maybe a little uncomfortable with the slower speeds compared to common trainers. I still think the higher speeds are the problem, but as stated by some, they feel the higher speeds are acceptable.

I flew a Mooney for years. When people messed up landings in a Money, they were often too fast. This isn’t just my opinion, but well documented in various reviews of the Mooney.

Tom, as far as your comments, I have no doubt you have much more experience in CTs than I do. Though 15 degrees might be the best when learning for most, it wasn’t for me. I still prefer the 30 degree setting and this is what I had my best luck with when I was still trying to figure it out. Some guys have commented that they like a full stall landing with 40 degrees. Again, 15 degrees may be the best learning setting for most, but maybe not for everyone.

Regardless of the flap setting, book still calls for 54 on final. I’m just saying it’s worth a try if they are struggling.

[Jim Meade]

Dasflughusen

Are you by any chance a Franconian flying rabbit?

[dasflughusen]

On 10/6/2023 at 6:53 AM, Towner said:

I certainly could be wrong, but it sounds like Dasflughasen’s instructor is new to the CT series also and that he hasn’t figured it out. Maybe a little uncomfortable with the slower speeds compared to common trainers. I still think the higher speeds are the problem, but as stated by some, they feel the higher speeds are acceptable.

I flew a Mooney for years. When people messed up landings in a Money, they were often too fast. This isn’t just my opinion, but well documented in various reviews of the Mooney.

Tom, as far as your comments, I have no doubt you have much more experience in CTs than I do. Though 15 degrees might be the best when learning for most, it wasn’t for me. I still prefer the 30 degree setting and this is what I had my best luck with when I was still trying to figure it out. Some guys have commented that they like a full stall landing with 40 degrees. Again, 15 degrees may be the best learning setting for most, but maybe not for everyone.

Regardless of the flap setting, book still calls for 54 on final. I’m just saying it’s worth a try if they are struggling.

Hello Tom

Indeed, I feel that higher approaching speed contributes to a lot of trouble.

I wrecked the first landing of my check flight before today's potential solo. My instructor pushes me to approach at avg.65kts.

And after I round out my flaring is not enough and I get all three wheels touch the ground at the same time. And he is angry about this (although I think that it is his demand for higher approaching speed is causing the problem of the negative AoA)

The instructor seems to be an retired air force Mig-21 pilot and start his instructor career(most of his time should be on CT) less then 2 years ago. Instructors not coming from civil aviation tends to asks students to approach higher, and even round out lower (at about 15 ft). He calls my 61~60 kts approach last two days is "dancing on a dangerous cliff of the lower margin ". He can always shout and call out my problems (when it happens)but he never analysis the problem for me; I have to think over the problem myself and try the solution next flight and scan the POH to try to get some information. I tried to tell him that since the POH state the 57 kts is the recommanded speed for approaching at 15-degree flight, which probably means that induced drag will only start to increase sharply below 57kts, so 58, 59 and 60 is okay, and it is only below 56kts the lower speed should be taken with more care. But he does not accept this.

My higher round-out at about 30ft is also criticized. I am forced to do a low altitude and sharp round out because that is their procedure.

Another emerging problem is that when I touch down, the aircraft seems to be on the left side of the center-line of the runway, and have a momentum to the left. And when the touch down happens, I can feel that the carbon fiber plane is not stable; she wants to rotate to the left and wobble, I have to do a hard rudder job to comfort the plane. I have to admit I am a new and inexperienced student, and I am weak at controlling the direction and sink rate and the last 20 or 10 seconds before touch down. When I tried to correct for direction the sink rate tends to be out of control and I usually compensate this with a much aggressive pull which causes a low-height, low-speed ballooning.

 

 

[dasflughusen]

On 10/6/2023 at 9:36 AM, Jim Meade said:

Dasflughusen

Are you by any chance a Franconian flying rabbit?

Nope. I returned to China from U.S years ago. And that is the reason why I have a comfortable memory of flying a 172 (even with very few hours), which is popular there, and feel big headache with the slippery CTLS here, where it seems not many instructors flying on this for many years.

[Madhatter]

Sounds like you need a new instructor  or just buy a Mig-21.

[Towner]

If he is military, he should know to use book figures. Book says 54 on final. This is also about 1.3 of the stall speed. Find a new instructor. As Andy and I mentioned, we even come in a little slower than that in calm winds, but I would just try book figures for now if I were you.

I am not an instructor, but I have walked other certified pilots through landing my plane. Usually takes a little convincing to get them to slow down, but then they do fine.

I do land a little differently when using 15 degrees vs 30 degrees, but not a big deal either way. At 30 degrees, I put it on the main gear and hold the nose off until it just won’t stay up anymore, which is a couple hundred feet with no brakes. Doesn’t need to be done this way, I just baby the nose gear and mostly because it’s fun.

As far as pulling left, my plane does slightly during the flare, but not much and easy to control with just a little rudder. The slower speed may reduce the left tendency and that may be why I don’t see much, but it is still there if you don’t adjust. It’s not enough to cause a directional problem, such as sending you to the edge of the runway, it’s just noticeable. There is still plenty of rudder to straighten it out at slow speeds. 

when you are fast and have a crosswind, be careful because there might be enough lift on the wings to pick up one side if you aren’t adjusting for the crosswind. Found this out the hard way when the plane was brand new to me.

You really have to get him to try the slower speed. I know some don’t do it, but try it a few time at 15 and 30. I personally only use 40 just to stay competent with it, but don’t use it often.

[FlyingMonkey]

On 10/3/2023 at 7:21 PM, Towner said:

I still like 55 on final with 30 flaps, power only as needed, then 48-50 on short final. Still gives me plenty of flare and round out.

As far as firm landings, it may not be what you think. I couldn’t get a smooth landing forever until I finally realized I still wasn’t straight down the runway! Even after reading everything about having to adjust the sight angle, I still wasn’t doing it enough. You really have to change your view to get it straight and just a little off will feel a little rough on touchdown.

One of the big contributors to firm landings, and which I struggled with for a long time, is round out height.  If you round out too high, the airplane runs out of energy above the runway and drops to the pavement in a “carrier-style” landing.

The CTSW (and I presume the LS as well) has a pronounced “pause” in the descent when you hit ground effect.  If you round out before that, you’re too high and will likely drop in.  I usually wait until I feel the pause, then wait a beat or two and start the round out. I have before described the round out height as “playing chicken with the ground”…the height is quite low compared to something like a 172.

One nice thing about a faster approach is that the ground effect pause is more pronounced.  When learning, a faster approach can train you for the round out height so that as you gain experience and slow things down you’ll have the feel down even if you can’t feel the ground effect strongly.