What does the ELSA process look like

[procharger]

What are the steps to go ELSA?? thanks

[Madhatter]

Call a DAR and he will take care of it. The aircraft must be in annual/condition status with all SB's done. In other words it must be in airworthy condition. Also you will probably need around $800 for him. It was easy for me.

[Jim Meade]

Mine (I've done two) were around $500 each but that was several years ago.

Here is a thread on this topic.

 

[EricB]

Just did mine a few months ago.  I agree that it is probably good to contact the DAR and have them help you with what forms to submit and what info to leave out or flags start to go up.  A current annual makes the process go best although other approaches are possible with a friendly A&P.  There is some disagreement about what placards and lettering is required so your DAR will be the source unless you want to argue with them or switch.  Mine is shown in the pic plus a label above the passenger seat.  Removal of old lettering goes easy with a low intensity heat gun.  The $800 figure noted is a good budget based on time and drive needed - best if you can fly to them.  Any reputable one will tell you what to expect there in advance.  

 

[FlyingMonkey]

On 2/17/2024 at 1:53 PM, Madhatter said:

Call a DAR and he will take care of it. The aircraft must be in annual/condition status with all SB's done. In other words it must be in airworthy condition. Also you will probably need around $800 for him. It was easy for me.

Technically it's a little more demanding than that, depending on the DAR (I know you know this, just stating it for the original poster).

The airplane should be in the original condition as delivered as an SLSA.  So, no modifications without MRAs/LOAs, all placards have to be correct and in place, etc.  Again how far they take this depends on the DAR, and it's kind of weird since you are making sure a lot of things are a certain way just to be able to change them later.

As an example, my DAR checked to make sure the LIGHT SPORT decals were on my airplane and correctly placed, even though once he signed off the change to ELSA they were no longer correct -- he then stayed and watched me remove them and add the EXPERIMENTAL decals.     He's a great DAR, but kind of a stickler.  There's a checklist that the DAR is supposed to follow, and some of the items on it are kind of silly like that.

[FlyingMonkey]

I found the email where the DAR I used told me all the requirements for the conversion, and how the process works.  If you can get all these items together before calling the DAR, the process will probably run smoother:
 

1.                   At the time of my certification visit, you would need to submit a completed FAA Form 8130-6 Application for Airworthiness form and a “Program Letter”-- I can help you complete those ahead of time.
 

2.                   You would need to email me photocopies of the following documents for my review ahead of time.

a.                   Current registration certificate

b.                  SLSA airworthiness certificate

c.                   SLSA operating limitations document

d.                  Current empty weight and balance

e.                  Original FAA Form 8130-15 from when the aircraft was certificated as an SLSA.

f.                    Manufacturer’s ground test, flight test, and final inspection records—these may be logbook entries or separate paper forms, depending on how the manufacturer does it.

g.                   A photo of your fireproof aircraft dataplate, showing at least the aircraft manufacturer, model, and serial number (which should match your registration certificate character-for-character

h.                  Logbook entries showing that the aircraft had an annual condition inspection within the last twelve months and that it included a test of the Emergency Locator Transmitter (ELT).

i.                     Evidence that all manufacturer’s Safety Alerts have been complied with

j.                    Evidence that any modifications to the aircraft were approved in writing by the manufacturer
 

3.                   I would need to verify that you have a manufacturer’s Pilot Operating Handbook (POH) for your specific aircraft model and serial number and a manufacturer’s Flight Training Supplement (which may be included in the POH or may be a separate document).  If you have these as computer files, you could email them to me.  If not, I would look at them during the certification visit.
 

4.                   When I arrive for the certification, you would surrender your existing SLSA airworthiness certificate and operating limitations document to me.  You would need to have the engine cowling and some of the access covers removed so I can do my inspection.  In addition to a general inspection, I would be looking for the following.

a.                   Current transponder/encoder test

b.                  All equipment installed per POH

c.                   All placards installed per POH
 

5.                   There are a couple of placard changes that would need to be made.

a.                   You’d need to remove the placard(s) on the outside of the airplane that say “LIGHT SPORT.”

b.                  You’d need to install new placard(s) that says “EXPERIMENTAL.”  The letters must be 2” high and the placard(s) must be visible from any entrance.  Oftentimes it is possible to use only one such placard on the aft baggage compartment bulkhead, just so long as it is easily visible from both doors.

c.                   You’d need to remove the existing passenger warning placard and replace it with another one stating that the aircraft is an ELSA (for example, Aircraft Spruce P/N 09-01966).
 

6.                   My inspection would probably take 2-3 hours.  Once it was done, I would hand you a new ELSA airworthiness certificate and operating limitations document and we would be finished.

[FlyingMonkey]

Also, the DAR let me put a single EXPERIMENTAL placard on the front of the spar carry-through, since it's visible from both doors.  Might be worth asking your DAR about that location, since there's not a good aft bulkhead location and it will keep you from having to align decals on both doors.

[Madhatter]

1 hour ago, FlyingMonkey said:

I found the email where the DAR I used told me all the requirements for the conversion, and how the process works.  If you can get all these items together before calling the DAR, the process will probably run smoother:
 

1.                   At the time of my certification visit, you would need to submit a completed FAA Form 8130-6 Application for Airworthiness form and a “Program Letter”-- I can help you complete those ahead of time.
 

2.                   You would need to email me photocopies of the following documents for my review ahead of time.

a.                   Current registration certificate

b.                  SLSA airworthiness certificate

c.                   SLSA operating limitations document

d.                  Current empty weight and balance

e.                  Original FAA Form 8130-15 from when the aircraft was certificated as an SLSA.

f.                    Manufacturer’s ground test, flight test, and final inspection records—these may be logbook entries or separate paper forms, depending on how the manufacturer does it.

g.                   A photo of your fireproof aircraft dataplate, showing at least the aircraft manufacturer, model, and serial number (which should match your registration certificate character-for-character

h.                  Logbook entries showing that the aircraft had an annual condition inspection within the last twelve months and that it included a test of the Emergency Locator Transmitter (ELT).

i.                     Evidence that all manufacturer’s Safety Alerts have been complied with

j.                    Evidence that any modifications to the aircraft were approved in writing by the manufacturer
 

3.                   I would need to verify that you have a manufacturer’s Pilot Operating Handbook (POH) for your specific aircraft model and serial number and a manufacturer’s Flight Training Supplement (which may be included in the POH or may be a separate document).  If you have these as computer files, you could email them to me.  If not, I would look at them during the certification visit.
 

4.                   When I arrive for the certification, you would surrender your existing SLSA airworthiness certificate and operating limitations document to me.  You would need to have the engine cowling and some of the access covers removed so I can do my inspection.  In addition to a general inspection, I would be looking for the following.

a.                   Current transponder/encoder test

b.                  All equipment installed per POH

c.                   All placards installed per POH
 

5.                   There are a couple of placard changes that would need to be made.

a.                   You’d need to remove the placard(s) on the outside of the airplane that say “LIGHT SPORT.”

b.                  You’d need to install new placard(s) that says “EXPERIMENTAL.”  The letters must be 2” high and the placard(s) must be visible from any entrance.  Oftentimes it is possible to use only one such placard on the aft baggage compartment bulkhead, just so long as it is easily visible from both doors.

c.                   You’d need to remove the existing passenger warning placard and replace it with another one stating that the aircraft is an ELSA (for example, Aircraft Spruce P/N 09-01966).
 

6.                   My inspection would probably take 2-3 hours.  Once it was done, I would hand you a new ELSA airworthiness certificate and operating limitations document and we would be finished.

Wow ,mine was nothing like this.  Much much easier, the DAR did everything for me. I did have one advantage however. I knew this man when he was head of maintenance inspectors at the FSDO. He did some large field approvals for me at the time because he trusted me not to lead him down the wrong path. The biggest issue DAR'S have now is trusting the customer. Liability is a big issue so if they don't know you well they run you through every hoop possible. A lot of DAR's have been burned by unscrupulous customers according to my DAR. I was also offered his DAR position before he retired but declined it due to liability. 

 

[FlyingMonkey]

6 minutes ago, Madhatter said:

Wow ,mine was nothing like this.  Much much easier, the DAR did everything for me. I did have one advantage however. I knew this man when he was head of maintenance inspectors at the FSDO. He did some large field approvals for me at the time because he trusted me not to lead him down the wrong path. The biggest issue DAR'S have now is trusting the customer. Liability is a big issue so if they don't know you well they run you through every hoop possible. A lot of DAR's have been burned by unscrupulous customers according to my DAR. I was also offered his DAR position before he retired but declined it due to liability. 

 

Having good relations with the FAA is a huge plus!  My DAR was easygoing and not hard to work with, he just wants you to have all your paperwork and documents ready to make things go fast and smooth.  I also took my LSRM-I weekend class with him.

[sandpiper]

Since the aircraft is still a Light Sport, why does that need removal??

[Jim Meade]

Special Light Sport Aircraft is placarded Light Sport

Experimental Light Sport Aircraft is placarded Experimental

That's what the FARs say.

[FlyingMonkey]

2 hours ago, Jim Meade said:

Special Light Sport Aircraft is placarded Light Sport

Experimental Light Sport Aircraft is placarded Experimental

That's what the FARs say.

Exactly, it's a category change.  Your airplane is no longer really in the "Light Sport" Category, it's in the "Experimental" category and the airplane just happens to meet the definition of a Light Sport airplane.  It's similar to how an Experimental Amateur-Build airplane like the Sonex can meet the definition of an LSA, but it's in the Experimental category.

 

[Eddie Cesnalis]

Better said its no longer Special Light Sport.  It's also not Experimental Amateur built but now its Experimental Light Sport.

[Tom Baker]

9 hours ago, sandpiper said:

Since the aircraft is still a Light Sport, why does that need removal??

The simply answer is to let passengers know that the airplane is no longer is required to meet a standard approved by the FAA. 

[sandpiper]

Thanks everyone for your quick  responses. Now it makes some sense!

[Bill3558]

My DAR requested hard copies of all the manuals, POH, etc.  Spent $65 at Staples. He hardly glanced at them. You may want to ask if digital is ok. 
I like the idea of putting the experimental decal on the spar carry thru. Will do that. 
 

[FlyingMonkey]

Here's what my experimental marking looks like:

[EricB]

Forgot to mention one thing that was an issue.  Any changes from factory original must be supported by LOA.  My CTLS had gotten a new GTX335 and the radio shop (for previous owner) had given him the STC paperwork.  No good.  Fortunately, there is an LOA from FD to allow the compliant GTX.  The DAR pointed out that the radio shop was in error (and non-compliance) but that wasn't my problem any longer.  So be careful of anything that wasn't on the plane when it left the factory.

[Warmi]

7 hours ago, EricB said:

Forgot to mention one thing that was an issue.  Any changes from factory original must be supported by LOA.  My CTLS had gotten a new GTX335 and the radio shop (for previous owner) had given him the STC paperwork.  No good.  Fortunately, there is an LOA from FD to allow the compliant GTX.  The DAR pointed out that the radio shop was in error (and non-compliance) but that wasn't my problem any longer.  So be careful of anything that wasn't on the plane when it left the factory.

This requirement is really odd - so if i have something installed that is not approved, I am expected to rip it out so i can install it right back once the DAR is gone and I got my new cert - there must be some logic behind it somewhere but it escapes me completely at the moment.

[Garrett Gee]

9 minutes ago, Warmi said:

This requirement is really odd - so if i have something installed that is not approved, I am expected to rip it out so i can install it right back once the DAR is gone and I got my new cert - there must be some logic behind it somewhere but it escapes me completely at the moment.

Technically, yes.  The airplane has to be in an airworthy condition when it is converted to experimental.  If something was installed that wasn't approved, it isn't airworthy (at least from a paperwork standpoint).  It could be removed, converted over, and then immediately re-installed, as you said.  It's weird.  But, the logic is it isn't airworthy, so they can't convert it over to experimental.  Normal logic, not really.  FAA logic, absolutely

[Madhatter]

Welcome to the FAA. That's why you don't see new model GA certified aircraft in the last 20+ years made in the US.

[Warmi]

I would think more reasonable approach would be to check if the plane is airworthy as an ELSA ( whatever that means) since thats the intended new category and only if it is , issue the new papers.

[Tom Baker]

A SLSA have to meet a standard approved by the FAA. The ony one that the FAA has approved is the ASTM standard. ASTM requires manufacturers to track any changes made to the airplane from the point of manufacture. If a change has not been recorded, then the airplane is no longer in compliance with ASTM standards. If it is not in compliance with ASTM Standards, then it is not airworthy in the eyes of the FAA. It seems that as these airplanes get older, and start getting modified that some of the people working on them don't understand the regulatory requirements. 

[FlyingMonkey]

13 hours ago, Tom Baker said:

It seems that as these airplanes get older, and start getting modified that some of the people working on them don't understand the regulatory requirements. 

Agreed.  Couple this with lack of ongoing parts and support as airplanes age out, and I think if they want to stay legal *all* S-LSA eventually will become E-LSA.  At some point new or even serviceable CT (or any S-LSA type) parts will be impossible to find, and if the manufacturer changes or goes away there might be nobody to issue LOAs for any changes, alternate parts, or methods.  At that point it's E-LSA or the junkyard. 

[Madhatter]

I don't think FD is going to survive,  my opinion. They are not delivering enough aircraft to make money for the investors after leaving Kherson and setting up in Czech Republic. Also the market is changing dramatically with new proposed MOSAIC rules, resulting in higher performance LSA aircraft. As far as the Asian market is concerned, production in Taiwan may not be far from a Kherson situation. If they don't survive, all of us will be ELSA.