Jim Posted October 15, 2011 Report Share Posted October 15, 2011 Does anyone have any documentation approving it? What's Vne with the doors off? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger Lee Posted October 16, 2011 Report Share Posted October 16, 2011 Yes FD approves it, but it isn't that great. It's a wind tunnel. 100 knots, but stay under 90 is better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarcF Posted July 9, 2012 Report Share Posted July 9, 2012 Yes FD approves it, but it isn't that great. It's a wind tunnel. 100 knots, but stay under 90 is better. Hi Roger, ANd what about removing only one door for photographic applications ? Friendly, Marc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger Lee Posted July 9, 2012 Report Share Posted July 9, 2012 FD hasn't done actual testing with one door. I have friend that opens his door at 30 flaps and 50 knots to take pictures. He has a styrofoam door stop up on the wing so when the door opens it has something to rest against. He has 1200 hrs. on his SW with at least half the time like this. He also has some cracks in his door where the window is glued in place and a 6" crack in the window. I'm sure this is due from 500 hrs. of wind buffeting stress. It might be worth your while in the long run money wise for repairs to just buy a crashed CT door and cut out the last 2/3 of the window and use that door and it would help with some of the wind in the cockpit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarcF Posted July 9, 2012 Report Share Posted July 9, 2012 FD hasn't done actual testing with one door. I have friend that opens his door at 30 flaps and 50 knots to take pictures. He has a styrofoam door stop up on the wing so when the door opens it has something to rest against. He has 1200 hrs. on his SW with at least half the time like this. He also has some cracks in his door where the window is glued in place and a 6" crack in the window. I'm sure this is due from 500 hrs. of wind buffeting stress. It might be worth your while in the long run money wise for repairs to just buy a crashed CT door and cut out the last 2/3 of the window and use that door and it would help with some of the wind in the cockpit. I fully agree with you but were is it possible to find a crashed CTLS door (if anybody have one ...)? Anyway I thought to fully remove the door to avoid any cracks. Thanks anyway Marc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DocRon Posted July 10, 2012 Report Share Posted July 10, 2012 I fully agree with you but were is it possible to find a crashed CTLS door (if anybody have one ...)? Anyway I thought to fully remove the door to avoid any cracks. Thanks anyway Marc Marc, If this is a photography-oriented request, have you considered getting a photographer's window installed? FD has a window for the doors with a much larger opening than the one in our standard window models. Might be worth investigating. Good luck. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Posted July 10, 2012 Author Report Share Posted July 10, 2012 I fully agree with you but were is it possible to find a crashed CTLS door (if anybody have one ...)? Anyway I thought to fully remove the door to avoid any cracks. Thanks anyway Marc I think flying with a door open is risky. You've seriously disturbed the airflow under one wing. Who knows what that might do to the stall and/or spin characteristics of the aircraft. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Meade Posted July 11, 2012 Report Share Posted July 11, 2012 I think flying with a door open is risky. You've seriously disturbed the airflow under one wing. Who knows what that might do to the stall and/or spin characteristics of the aircraft. Do you have some statistics or experience to support your concern? I've flown a J3 Cub with the one door open and had no issues. I've flown C172 and C182s with a window opened up all the way for photography and not found the airplane to be hard to control. The window is in near the wing root, which stalls first - if there should be any stalling tendency, the wing tip should still be controllable so I don't see a danger of falling into a spin out of the stall, assuming normal recovery protocols. I've had the door pop open on C150's a number of times - probably 10 or more and also on a PA-28-180 and not found it to be a problem in any event. With the Cessnas, you open a window to relieve pressure and close the door. It happend so frequently that I used to teach it (with forewarning) so thow the student pilot it was not an issue. On the Piper, we landed and then closed it - they are harder to do in the air in my experience with it and a couple of times when the door wasn't latched fully. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Posted July 11, 2012 Author Report Share Posted July 11, 2012 I don't have anything other than an engineer's empirical sense. An open door in a CT is right up against the bottom surface of the wing, unlike a 150 or PA-28. That has to disturb the airflow. If you think the risks are acceptable, that's surely your call. I'll not be doing it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Meade Posted July 11, 2012 Report Share Posted July 11, 2012 I don't have anything other than an engineer's empirical sense. An open door in a CT is right up against the bottom surface of the wing, unlike a 150 or PA-28. That has to disturb the airflow. If you think the risks are acceptable, that's surely your call. I'll not be doing it. When I flew the Cessnas for photographers, we took the screw out of the window retainer and opened the window all the way up against the bottom of the wing. The PA-28 you don't open on purpose as it serves no good, my comment was that while it's a nuisance and if someone overreacts it can be serious, it is intrinsically not a bigt deal. The Cub has a bracket on the bottom fo the wing to hold the window up flat underneath it. I would be more inclined to fly a CTSW with no door because I tihnk the door attachment hardware is flimsy. As you know, at least one Cessna C-162 Skycather had the door ripped off in flight when it opened. But that's not what we're talking about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger Lee Posted July 11, 2012 Report Share Posted July 11, 2012 Hi Jim, There have been several people who have done so. It isn't a flight issue, just damage to the door if you aren't slowed down. FD knows about it. I have known a few doors to have opened on take off without any issues. They didnt latch the doors before take off, they did not come open on there own. They I also know of someone that hangs a 25 lb. camera set up out off the wing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Posted July 11, 2012 Author Report Share Posted July 11, 2012 Your plane, your call. I always ask myself, "how would I like to be sitting in an NTSB hearing explaining what I did". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarcF Posted July 11, 2012 Report Share Posted July 11, 2012 Thanks for the advices. I do have a photographic window but the window is not wide enough. Furthermore, the use of the windows implies that the lens of the camera is out (for a tele) and the pressure of the wind over the lens makes the shoot not very accurate. In fact, I tried to removed one door for just a small flight, and there was not noticeable problems (I stayed below 140Kph), but my doubts were about the risk on the plane structure since FD claims that doors are necessary to keep the body of the plane rigid enough. (I apologyze for my poor english language). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Meade Posted July 11, 2012 Report Share Posted July 11, 2012 but my doubts were about the risk on the plane structure since FD claims that doors are necessary to keep the body of the plane rigid enough. Can you provide a reference to that information? I've not seen or heard of it before. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Runtoeat Posted July 11, 2012 Report Share Posted July 11, 2012 At one time, a CTLS (and maybe a CTSW?) could be purchased with a removable door. This was a factory option and CT's are presently flying that have these removable doors. In order to offer this option, one might think that FD must have flight tested the aircraft with the doors removed. Perhaps the lawyers got nervous and advised FD to stop offering the removable door(s). Perhaps someone has flown a CT with doors removed for hundreds of hours and cracks developed in the airframe? There could be a number of reasons and we probably will never know why. I tend to believe that concerns with flight characteristics or concerns with airframe structural degradation are not reasons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mac Bowden Posted July 11, 2012 Report Share Posted July 11, 2012 I've considered doing it many times but when you look at the thickness of the brass hinge pins, no safety chord and the possibility of the door flying off into the path of the tailplane...... hmmm......no thanks! I'll keep polishing the perspex for now. Mac Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarcF Posted July 11, 2012 Report Share Posted July 11, 2012 I've considered doing it many times but when you look at the thickness of the brass hinge pins, no safety chord and the possibility of the door flying off into the path of the tailplane...... hmmm......no thanks! I'll keep polishing the perspex for now. Mac I agree with the fact that I would not have try with the door open, I just tried without one door for a few minutes. When I phoned to FD, the concerns about the mainframe were raised by my correspondant. When I wrote, I recieved the written response that FD did not approve the procedure and did not proceed to any flying test without door and will not do it. No mention about the fact that CTLS could be sold with optional removable doors (anyway I never saw this option in Europa).That is why I asked your advices or experience. If anaybody sell a damaged door, I am interested ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mac Bowden Posted July 12, 2012 Report Share Posted July 12, 2012 MarcF, I understand your question now! I thought you meant to fly with the door held open upwards whilst flying. As for flying without the door attached now that's a different scenario. I've done that several times and other than holding on to any paperwork in the cockpit it worked just fine. The journey was less then 30 minutes and the speed was kept below 70 knots with no difference in feel to the aircraft. By the way, it was the passengers door! Far too cold in this part of Europe for any shirt sleeve flying. Mac Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarcF Posted July 12, 2012 Report Share Posted July 12, 2012 MarcF, I understand your question now! I thought you meant to fly with the door held open upwards whilst flying. As for flying without the door attached now that's a different scenario. I've done that several times and other than holding on to any paperwork in the cockpit it worked just fine. The journey was less then 30 minutes and the speed was kept below 70 knots with no difference in feel to the aircraft. By the way, it was the passengers door! Far too cold in this part of Europe for any shirt sleeve flying. Mac Thanks Mac. As I fly over the French Riviera, I have no problem with external temperature. I will stay below 140Kph then... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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