Ed Cesnalis Posted July 30, 2012 Report Share Posted July 30, 2012 As I hear about Big Sis getting approval from the FAA to have 30,000 drones in our air space I wonder about collision avoidance. Is "see and avoid" becoming a 1-way street? Do I need to invest in a rear view mirror? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger Lee Posted July 30, 2012 Report Share Posted July 30, 2012 Unless they have a chase plane they are usually above 20k' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed Cesnalis Posted July 30, 2012 Author Report Share Posted July 30, 2012 "The pilot of the Cessna jet radioed air traffic controllers to warn them that “A remote controlled aircraft” had flown past his plane far too close for comfort.“Something just went by the other way … About 20 to 30 seconds ago. It was like a large remote-controlled aircraft.” the pilot said in the transmission that was captured on the live air traffic audio website liveatc.net. The craft was reported as being about 8,000 feet above sea level, or about 2,800 feet above the ground, at the time the pilot reported the seeing it. It did not show up on radar. The type of drones used by NATO typically fly at 10,000 feet and below. Other tactical military drones can fly up to 18,000 feet.." http://www.infowars....et-over-denver/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
opticsguy Posted July 30, 2012 Report Share Posted July 30, 2012 it's only a matter of time before a drone takes down a commercial jet killing hundreds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed Cesnalis Posted July 30, 2012 Author Report Share Posted July 30, 2012 it's only a matter of time before a drone takes down a commercial jet killing hundreds. Or, Hundreds take down drone with commercial jet killing US govt asset! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Meade Posted July 30, 2012 Report Share Posted July 30, 2012 Much of the summer, I fly around my farm looking at crops every few days. Altitude ranges from 500' to 1000'. My eyes are outside the cockpit, of course. Still, if some tiny drone on pipeline patrol comes around about then it could get close. There will be a number of organizations that want to fly drones. Drones will be counting wildlife and livestock. They will be looking for lost children. They will be using infrared cameras to check on crop diseases. Realtors have already been using UAS to get pictures. Activist groups are using them to check on anything they are interested in. The USDA is checking on crop planting compliance. The highway patrol will want them to catch speeders. Not all the new drones have to fly along. Some can hover for a long time. Some are so very small they will be quite hard to see. There are going to be opportunities for interference. The thing I worry most about is that groups will use this situation to force all aircraft to have ADS-B In and OUt sooner rather than later, and I mean Cubs, balloons, gliders and you name it. Just my opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chanik Posted July 30, 2012 Report Share Posted July 30, 2012 Those new rules do require these lightly regulated drones to remain below 500' AGL at all times and outside any airport class C airspace. Since airplanes are always supposed to be above 500' AGL there should be no collision threat. Now everyone just needs to follow the rules. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
opticsguy Posted July 30, 2012 Report Share Posted July 30, 2012 This may be the upside of living under the class B mushroom of DFW and the visual approach to 013 at KDAL, and inside a class D ring. It doesn't stop the police helicopters, but hopefully the drones. This brings up a legal issue of equal protection (invasion) of privacy. Those who live outside of controlled airspace can be "monitored" more easily. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Meade Posted July 30, 2012 Report Share Posted July 30, 2012 Those new rules do require these lightly regulated drones to remain below 500' AGL at all times and outside any airport class C airspace. Since airplanes are always supposed to be above 500' AGL there should be no collision threat. Now everyone just needs to follow the rules. Please post the citation. I was not aware that the new rules have been posted and I track this topic pretty closely, so if I missed something I want to get caught up. Your comments are close but not exactly like the AC for remote controller model airplanes. "§ 91.119 Minimum safe altitudes: General. Except when necessary for takeoff or landing, no person may operate an aircraft below the following altitudes: (a) Anywhere. An altitude allowing, if a power unit fails, an emergency landing without undue hazard to persons or property on the surface. ( Over congested areas. Over any congested area of a city, town, or settlement, or over any open air assembly of persons, an altitude of 1,000 feet above the highest obstacle within a horizontal radius of 2,000 feet of the aircraft. © Over other than congested areas. An altitude of 500 feet above the surface, except over open water or sparsely populated areas. In those cases, the aircraft may not be operated closer than 500 feet to any person, vessel, vehicle, or structure. (d) Helicopters, powered parachutes, and weight-shift-control aircraft. If the operation is conducted without hazard to persons or property on the surface— (1) A helicopter may be operated at less than the minimums prescribed in paragraph ( or © of this section, provided each person operating the helicopter complies with any routes or altitudes specifically prescribed for helicopters by the FAA; and (2) A powered parachute or weight-shift-control aircraft may be operated at less than the minimums prescribed in paragraph © of this section." As you can see, there are a number of legal ways to operate below 500'. I do it fairly often when surveying my farm fields, because I'm in a sparsely populated area. Crop dusters, pipeline patrols, animal counters and others operate more below 500' than above it. It's is easy to fall into the trap of thinking all aviation is like our personal aviation. In addition, in an emergency rules can be ignored in the interests of safety so there may be a few times when that justifies low flight. The area below 500' is just as precious as that above. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed Cesnalis Posted July 30, 2012 Author Report Share Posted July 30, 2012 Those new rules do require these lightly regulated drones to remain below 500' AGL at all times and outside any airport class C airspace. Since airplanes are always supposed to be above 500' AGL there should be no collision threat. Now everyone just needs to follow the rules. The near miss in CO was @ 10,000' MSL and 2,800' AGL. Something tells me that if we have ten thousand or more drones piloted by ten thousand or more desk jockey pilots that air space will be busted by drones. I fly below 500' for various reasons and if I look at the mountainous terrain around me I realize that a 500' limitation for drones is not workable in steep terrain. I'm becoming convinced that we light sport pilots are being put at risk so our government can watch us and even take us out if it chooses to. I find drones killing people in foreign lands really creepy. If the president says kill, even if you are only a friend, relative or bystander, you will die. Moving this technology back home pisses me off. We have a 2nd amendment so that we can protect ourselves from our govt if necessarily. 30,000 domestic drones will give the govt the upper hand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chanik Posted July 30, 2012 Report Share Posted July 30, 2012 http://www.avweb.com/avwebflash/news/FAATweaksDroneRules_206690-1.html 400ft actually. I was being a bit sarcastic with my rules comment. My real woory is that with no licensing or enforcement mechanisms, nothing is going to stop me from flying my new 25lb aerial photography drone up to 800ft until I accidentally take out a cessna. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coppercity Posted July 30, 2012 Report Share Posted July 30, 2012 I Have been flying and testing UAS (Unmanned Aircraft Systems) for the last 20 years down here in the South West as well as many other areas around the world.We fly in the national airspace everyday from the surface to 18000' but we do it by the rules outlined in our COA(Certifiacte of Authorization) issued by the FAA. Most of the UAS being flown CONUS are operated within defined restricted areas or within the boundaries of COA's which are not kept secret, they are given NOTAMs well in advance of operations inside so that all pilots have the information needed to know when UAS are flying and where. There are some small UAS systems that can operate below 400' but they have to be flown within eye contact of the ground observer, or within restricted areas. Most UAS operations require a Government sponsor to even be issued a COA or use the restricted airspace, though I'm sure there are a few people out there building homemade systems that are not following anyones rules at all, but it would not be the norm. Our COA and most others issued to UAS systems require we operate a transponder with mode C and sometimes Mode S capability and be in radar contact of the airspace controlling agency. When we are out side of visual contact of ground observers we follow our UAS with a chase aircraft until we can reach the flight levels in which case we will operate on an IFR flight plan and be treated as any other IFR aircraft, this is common practice in our UAS world. We are aware of the hazzards of flying near manned aircraft and try to reduce the risk as much as possible. We are not all "desk Jockey's" but are real pilots as well with our own planes and schools etc. The industry is also working hard at developing sense and avoid technology that will be able to detect other aircraft and manuever to avoid them better then a human eye could ever hope to do. Humans have blind spots, distractions, etc that keep us from seeing all the traffic around us. If you have ever been in busy airspace with a TCAS system you will see tons of blips on a screen and maybe be able to physically see 20-30% of them, a computer could see them all and make decisions on how to aviod them. We are also working on softare that will keep the UAS flightpath within certain airspace volumes so that UAS dont end up where they shouldn't be. A lot of good come from the technology tested in UAS system, take the ROTAX for example, if it wasnt being used in UAS it would have taken a lot longer to get the data required to up the TBO times had they just been in ultralights and LSA. Not everyone is ready to warm up to Unmanned aircraft but they are here to stay and are a huge impact on the US economy. The UAS community in general wants to be as safe as possible and minimize the impact on manned aircraft operations, like I said most of us are pilots and enjoy flying as well, and we never want to put any manned aircraft at risk. It does require we as manned pilots to study the published NOTAMs so we are informed about operations and can avoid the published restricted areas, together we can make sharing our airspace as safe as possible. By the way we dont spy on you from above....unless your doing something wrong.... and "drones" is a term used for something that doesnt return, like a target to shoot at, our UAS come back and get used over and over. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bitten192 Posted July 30, 2012 Report Share Posted July 30, 2012 I got several calls from SoCal about UAVs when I was on flight follow. Do they also call the drone (excuse me the UAV) operator and warn him to watch out for me? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doug G. Posted July 31, 2012 Report Share Posted July 31, 2012 Yes, quad and hex-copters carrying Go-Pro cameras are getting to be more common in the R/C world. Of course they don't spy on anyone either - or at least they would not admit it, unless possibly there was a reward for catching you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coppercity Posted July 31, 2012 Report Share Posted July 31, 2012 I got several calls from SoCal about UAVs when I was on flight follow. Do they also call the drone (excuse me the UAV) operator and warn him to watch out for me? If ATC deems there may be some conflict they will ask the UAV operator to change heading or altitude just like any other aircraft, they do sometimes call out traffic, but don't have us try to maintain visual separation from traffic unless the UAV and traffic are within eye contact of an observer either on the ground or in a chase plane. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed Cesnalis Posted July 31, 2012 Author Report Share Posted July 31, 2012 ...they do sometimes call out traffic, but don't have us try to maintain visual separation from traffic... Why would ATC call out traffic but not have you try and maintain visual separation? It sounds as though the UAVs are flying VFR with limited ability to "see and avoid." I know if I use a PC-SIM I can't even tell if I'm crabbing on a heading to the runway if there is some crosswind, do the UAV pilots have a better view? I remain unhappy about these aircraft in big numbers over out country for 2 reasons. 1) I don't trust the technology, I suspect there are too many points that might lead to failure to maintain separation. 2) I don't trust the govt, why do we suddenly need up to 30,000 of these things watching us? We already have a bigger percentage of our population in prison than any other nation, crime has been in decline. Fast and Furious has proven that we cannot trust our govt when it comes to the Mexican drug war. Where is the justification for the invasion of our privacy? Where is the justification for the cost? We need less "big brother" ( and big "sis" ) not more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Meade Posted July 31, 2012 Report Share Posted July 31, 2012 I'm worried about big government, too, but am more concerned about big business. Clever people will find ways to make UAS pay and when they do they will have a powerful voice with politicians. Further, there is no reason to assume all people will be scrupulous, so criminals and delinquents will also be involved. As UAS prices drop, they will be more plentiful and some will be used for mischief and operate outside the rules. We've probably already lost the privacy battle, and you can be sure that papparazi will use UAS to catch movie stars unaware, but we will also have new battle on what is considered legal search and seizure as police will try to use stealth to gather evidence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chanik Posted July 31, 2012 Report Share Posted July 31, 2012 I'm worried about big government, too, but am more concerned about big business. I'm most worried about Joe Plumber, private citizen. You can see how well that has worked out WRT cheap, powerful lasers. There are more than 10 laser incidents per day now according to the FAA. So the FAA is already considering allowing general, unlicensed private use of such drones for crop surveying, photography, pizza delivery, etc. At least Tacocopter got shot down. For now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
S3flyer Posted August 2, 2012 Report Share Posted August 2, 2012 http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/08/01/drone-privacy-bill_n_1728109.html?utm_hp_ref=politics Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed Cesnalis Posted November 29, 2012 Author Report Share Posted November 29, 2012 http://www.rotor.com/rotornews/Nov12/UASLetter.pdf The whole aviation community is concerned. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed Cesnalis Posted December 1, 2012 Author Report Share Posted December 1, 2012 Here's some cheery news from the Washington Post this morning re: UAV/UAS flights: "The U.S. Air Force drone, on a classified spy mission over the Indian Ocean, was destined for disaster from the start. An inexperienced military contractor in shorts and a T-shirt, flying by remote control from a trailer at Seychelles International Airport, committed blunder after blunder in six minutes on April 4. "He sent the unarmed MQ-9 Reaper drone off without permission from the control tower. A minute later, he yanked the wrong lever at his console, killing the engine without realizing why. As he tried to make an emergency landing, he forgot to put down the wheels. The $8.9 million aircraft belly-flopped on the runway, bounced and plunged into the tropical waters at the airport’s edge, according to a previously undisclosed Air Force accident investigation report. "The drone crashed at a civilian airport that serves a half-million passengers a year, most of them sun-seeking tourists. No one was hurt, but it was the second Reaper accident in five months — under eerily similar circumstances. “I will be blunt here. I said, ‘I can’t believe this is happening again,’ ” an Air Force official at the scene told investigators afterward. He added: “You go, ‘How stupid are you?’ ” "The April wreck was the latest in a rash of U.S. military drone crashes at overseas civilian airports in the past two years. The accidents reinforce concerns about the risks of flying the robot aircraft outside war zones, including in the United States. A review of thousands of pages of unclassified Air Force investigation reports, obtained by The Washington Post under public-records requests, shows that drones flying from civilian airports have been plagued by setbacks." For the balance of the article and (recently released) photos of drone crashes: http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/nat ... ml?hpid=z1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adam Posted December 1, 2012 Report Share Posted December 1, 2012 In preparation for an invasion of drones I had this installed on the wing of my new CTLS... Do you think FDUSA will issue an LOA for me or do I need to change my registration to experimental? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mick Posted December 1, 2012 Report Share Posted December 1, 2012 Don't forget the W & B Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Runtoeat Posted December 1, 2012 Report Share Posted December 1, 2012 FWIW I'm against UAV's. After hearing Eric's description of how his segment is well regulated, I feel better about mid-air collisions but I don't feel better about "Big Brother" watching me no matter what the official "policy" might be. The major portion of the UAV population which will be commercial that's coming scares the hell out of me but I'm afraid the horse has left the barn. Too much money for the taking to stop the train. Update: I just read Ed's info on the Air Force UAV mishap - cancel what I said about "well regulated". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coppercity Posted December 1, 2012 Report Share Posted December 1, 2012 Hard to stick up for UAVs with that type of unprofessionalism in the UAV community. Where can I get one of those guns for my CT as well! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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