Jump to content

Why I like Matco brakes over the original Italian brakes?


Roger Lee

Recommended Posts

Hi All,

 

I always get ask why I like the Matco brakes over the Italian Marc Ingegno brakes.

Well after a few years of using and installing these brakes and talking to others that have switched here is my answer.

What I don't like about the Marc's is that they have poor stopping power. They are rated at 60Kpsi and the Matco's are rated at 118Kpsi. The Marc's have high speed brake fade. That means when they start to get hot they loose they stopping power. The Matco's do not have any of this fade. The Marc wheels are a stamped wheel and a much thinner material than the Matco's which are turned out of solid stock. The Marc's flex with different psi in the tires and causes the disc to seize up and not move freely on the 4 mounting pins further reducing your stopping power. The Matco wheels are so solid they will not flex and they can handle much higher tire inflation pressures over the Marc's. By the way this technology with the disc floating and solid mounted calipers is old technology. Our cars and motorcycles have fixed disc and floating calipers like the Matco's. The Marc's have standard inferior round bearings and the Matco's have a much higher quality tappered roller bearing. The Matoc's have a wider bead mounting surface over the Marc's and the Matco's have a raised rough edge to keep the tire from turning on the wheel when under high stopping loads or low tire pressure. Most Marc brake sets on our CT's will not hold the plane still under a full throttle test. The Matco's will keep the plane in one spot under full throttle test. Matco has service either by phone over overnight shipping if need be for help. You won't get any help from the people at Marc, the brake components are more expensive and shipping can be an issue. I have sent many emails to them and never one answer back.

Another good point is the price of a master cylinder rebuild kit is off the charts for the Marc master cylinder. The Matco master cylinder rebuild kit is only $10. I think the Marc kit is 18 times that. A Marc master cylinder is about $180 a Matco is about $115. Not much of a decision for me.

 

Some ask what we did to modify the Matco's for the CT.

Well the short answer is, No actual brake modification was done. They are stock Matco brakes except for the fittings and axles. We had the master cylinder threaded to take our metric fittings verses standard NPT fittings. I had the push rod on the master cylinder turned down a little on the end so it would fit into our control rod to the brake handle. We set up the axle so it would fit our CTSW axle. We found a special fitting to mount our tubing to the caliper. Then after a while we realized people needed a way to adjust toe in/out and camber so we set something up to address the adjusting of the toe in/out and camber. This is where the split axle came about. So now they are fully adjustable for the CTSW. The LS has a different mounting system so that was never a problem. The LS and SW have the same brakes except for the way they mount.

 

 

So to sum up my personal opinion on these two brake systems, Well the Marc's have absolutely nothing going for them. They may be a fair Ultralight brake system (maybe), but not any good for a faster, heavier high performance aircraft. I knew early on that I couldn't live with the Marc's when I almost over ran a runway into a fence. I did make the last turn at a little higher speed than I wanted, but the bottom line was the brakes did fail me. I was also having to pump my brakes 5-6 times to get them ready to work on every landing. Not what you would call ideal.

Of course this is just my opinion and yours may differ and that's OK.

 

 

When you get a new CT or any aircraft with new Matco's on it the brakes need to be burnished in at high temps. The factory does not take the time to do this. You will loose 50% of your braking power if you do not do this. You need to taxi and ride the brakes at 15-20 mph. Let them heat up to 300F-400 F. After you have done this for a few minutes then take it out and do some progressive stops until eventually you bring it to hard stops. It tells you how to do this in the Matco manual. New planes have not had this done. You will also notice that the brakes will continue to get better after about 6 landings using the brakes.

 

 

p.s.

WOW this was a long post. I'll need a nap to recover.;)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Replies 52
  • Created
  • Last Reply

I love my Matco's. I was lazy and had mine in a box in the hangar for about 9 months before I'd had enough od the Italian jobs. The final straw was my landing check list included "pump the brakes on final". That was the only way I had brakes at touchdown. If i forgot, then my initial brake application was a hand full of nothing!

 

Great job, Roger, getting these CT approved. It says alot that all new CT's come with Matco's as does the RV-12 kit which I am working on.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Roger,

 

I endorse everything you say about Matcos. Mine are installed now and had my first flight yesterday. No pumping on downwind and good braking(about a third better, probably not burnt in fully yet)on our short strip. A lot more peace of mind!!

 

Bruce

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Once we shortened the springs, we've have no trouble at all with the original brakes. When the time comes to rebuild/replace our brakes, we'll certainly switch to the Matco system. I don't doubt that they do all you say they do; we've just been satisfied with ours so far.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

As Roger says, a complete waste of time trying to contact the Italian brake manufacturers, so rather than overhauling the OEM master cylinder I installed the Matco replacement. It's a direct replacement with a little adjustment to the brake lever arm travel and also replaced the 'O' rings on the wheel slave cylinders as well as shortening the brake pad springs.

The improvement is vast with absolutely no pumping required. As a minimum it's well worth considering.

Mac

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Roger, why is there a comment on another forum about how bad these brakes are and could've been the cause of an accident then? I hear nothing but great from everybody and then this comment surfaces. Should I just ignore it?

I think I'll be converting over my brakes at my next annual. I'd really like to convert over to the Tundra package at the same time, but I bet it's considerable $$. I'll post another thread about a problem I had with my brakes...

John

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hi John,

 

I won't get into specifics here, but you can call me for the answer. Bottom line it was a personal jab at me and ignorance of the brake system. The brakes had nothing to do with the incident. I was in on the specifics from day one and gave some technical support. I even have a video of that incident. One brake caliper guide pin was bent and damaged in the incident when the plane hit large rocks, the same rocks that caused it to flip. I think for being banged around in the rocks they held up extremely well. A caliper was taken from an LS and put directly on the SW, but the pin which is basically a screw could have just been replaced. The Matco brakes have been around a long time and will probaly be here for a long time to come. No one is having any safety issues with Matco brakes. These are the same brakes (different mounting hardware) that go on many hundreds of planes every year. You can feel assured that these brakes will serve you well and last longer than most people will ever fly their plane. This is why many individuals and Mfg's pick Matco for their brake system. Out of all the Matco's placed on CT's or other planes I have not heard of one complaint.

I hope this puts your mind to rest on any Matco safety issues.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think there is a safety issue and it is a very positive one. Bottom line.....these brakes are terrific. Was not happy with the brake fade on the original's or having to pump the brake after takeoff to stop spinning wheels whcih caused some vibration.

 

Case in point, flying into Santa Fe yesterday tower requested that I land long and exit asap to accomodate faster incoming traffic (happened to be my partner flying another plane). I landed long and was able to immediately slow enough to accomodate the request and was highly praised by the tower for my efforts. Nice when that happens.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 2 weeks later...
  • 1 month later...

Hi,

 

Matco are introduced for CTLS from begining of 2009, if I remember right.

My CTLS is 08-11-18 [november 2008] and is with original italian brakes.

 

You can see a Matco instalation on CTSW here:

http://ctflier.com/index.php?app=core&module=attach&section=attach&attach_id=107

 

You can simply know what kind of brakes you have if you look at the brakes disks: fixed for Matco, floated/mobiles for italian Marc.

 

Alec

Link to comment
Share on other sites

There has been a huge amount of information written about Matco brake system, but for those who may be new forum members, the Matcos also allow one to adjust camber and toe-in of their main wheels. There is no other way to effectively adjust BOTH camber and toe without using an axle with flat flanges such as the Matcos have. The FD alignment procedure for CTSW will only allow one to "twist" the axle bracket about the main gear legs. This allows adjustment of camber to the detriment of toe or will allow adjustment of toe to the detriment of caster. So, besides the improvement to brake performance, the Matcos also provide one to dial in wheel alignment which greatly improves tire wear.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I will agree also, having the adjustment of the Matcos increased my tire life to 400hrs with students landing on them, and as you said no more pumping or the feeling you won't have any brakes at the end of the runway. The brakes and rotors are wearing well too, I have over 500hrs on my pads and they are not halfway worn yet, and again that's 500hrs of student and renter abuse!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hi Doug,

 

I am the OEM dealer for the Matco brakes and first Matco user on a CT. I helped get this system set up for FD. The CTLS kit is $790-$830 depending on tires or tube size or need. They are fleet approved for the SW and LS. The Matco's come from the factory on all LS's since Jan. 2009. I have installed around 35 sets of Matco's by myself. You will need to fill out the modification / alteration form, but that's all. FD just keeps a record of what and who for their file. You get a new master cyl, new wheels (night and day over the Italian wheels), tapered roller bearings (verses inferior round type ball bearings), caliper, disc and fittings for the stock brake lines. The Italian brake technology is generations old. They try to float the disc and make the caliper mount solid. Absolutely backward. Here in the states we have a solid mounted disc and float our calipers. There wheels are stamped from thinner aluminum and will flex with pressure changes. The Matco's are cut from solid stock and don't flew under pressure changes. You keep the original brake lines. So the whole system is new.

I can drop them right on your door step or your mechanics. Your mechanic can use me as a resource for mounting help, but it isn't really tuff. You will need to trim about 1/4" off the bottom of your gear leg so the holes all line up and make a 5/8" 45 degree angle cut on the rear edge which is very easy.

 

Piece of cake (yellow cake with chocolate icing preferably).

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Roger,

Thanks for the info. I have an annual due next week and would like the brake conversion done at that time. I have ordered the 8 ply tires with tubes all around from Desser for installation. I have a non-Tundra set up.

Should I call you to order everything I need?

Doug

 

 

 

 

 

Hi Doug,

 

I am the OEM dealer for the Matco brakes and first Matco user on a CT. I helped get this system set up for FD. The CTLS kit is $790-$830 depending on tires or tube size or need. They are fleet approved for the SW and LS. The Matco's come from the factory on all LS's since Jan. 2009. I have installed around 35 sets of Matco's by myself. You will need to fill out the modification / alteration form, but that's all. FD just keeps a record of what and who for their file. You get a new master cyl, new wheels (night and day over the Italian wheels), tapered roller bearings (verses inferior round type ball bearings), caliper, disc and fittings for the stock brake lines. The Italian brake technology is generations old. They try to float the disc and make the caliper mount solid. Absolutely backward. Here in the states we have a solid mounted disc and float our calipers. There wheels are stamped from thinner aluminum and will flex with pressure changes. The Matco's are cut from solid stock and don't flew under pressure changes. You keep the original brake lines. So the whole system is new.

I can drop them right on your door step or your mechanics. Your mechanic can use me as a resource for mounting help, but it isn't really tuff. You will need to trim about 1/4" off the bottom of your gear leg so the holes all line up and make a 5/8" 45 degree angle cut on the rear edge which is very easy.

 

Piece of cake (yellow cake with chocolate icing preferably).

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hi Doug,

 

Just so you know FD doesn't approve those 8 plys any longer. They do approve the 6 plys for the small tires. 8 plys for the Tundra aren't an issue. There are people out there using them, but you need to keep the pressure up in them. Give me a call and I'll explain everything.

Yes, you can get Matco's through me. If i order them I need to do it tomorrow or won't be able to do it until next wed. I will be out of town Sunday until late Tuesday. Shipping to you should be 3-4 days with UPS.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.


×
×
  • Create New...