Touching down right wheel first when flying solo

[Jim]

I watched Adam's video and noticed he landed right wheel first. I land level with a passenger, but aways right wheel first when flying solo. I always have to change or rotate the right tire before the left one. Anyone else notice this?

[Ed Cesnalis]

I land level unless I am controlling drift and then I land on the upwind wheel. It doesn't matter if I am solo or not it only matters if there is drift to control.

 

You should touch down one wheel at a time due to a crosswind but you can also land first on the forward wheel if you are in a crab. The crab can be slight and hard to detect in a CT but if the landing happens on the right wheel then a little pivot to the right and then the left wheel contacts you are probably landing in a crab.

 

If you land one wheel at a time due to a crosswind ( and you are aligned ) there should be no pivot.

[coppercity]

People tend to land with a left crab in the CT (with no wind) due to the sight picture from the left seat, right wing down corrects for the slight left drift caused by this sight picture issue. If the centerline doesnt look like it is parallel to ridgeline in the top of the instrument panel and the center GPS antenna appears well right of centerline then your landing crooked.

[Roger Lee]

Here is an area where people tend to bend things. Not everyone, 100% of the time make smooth greaser type landings. Doesn't happen, we just try to get as close to 100% as possible. If you have a hard landing on a single wheel it is far more likely to bend that gear leg or split a wheel verses a bad landing impact that was spread over both mains and even over all three wheels. I have seen quite a few cracks up under the leg fairing where it joins the fuselage many times or on the leg fairing where the wheel pant attaches from just one wheel taking a little too hard an impact. It usually shows up on only one side that took the heaviest load transfer. Hard landing impacts are better spread out over a larger area. Landing on both mains is preferable. Landings are always harder on a plane no matter how good you are. It still must spin a wheel from a dead stop to 100+ mph and there has to be some weight transfer from the wings to the wheels and legs. We have so much rudder and control (so long as you are at full stall with mushy control inputs) compared to other planes I don't see a big need for a wing low one wheel landing. If you have an oops landing it could cost a couple of bucks if you apply all the load to a single wheel and it's a little too much. Side loading is greater on a single wheel than spread over both too. I now know of at least 6 split wheels and my guess would be hard impact and possibly coupled with a side load. (Tire pressure is also a factor)

[Ed Cesnalis]

It still must spin a wheel from a dead stop to 100+ mph and there has to be some weight transfer from the wings to the wheels and legs.

 

Well there's your problem right there Roger, 100mph is too fast, try touching down at stall speed

 

To summarize it sounds like you are advocating doing less damage to one gear by spreading out the damage to both or even all three. I say keep it simple and avoid the damage. Don't use a 1 point vs 2 point vs 3 point landing as your target.

Targets:

• track the center line
  
• touch down aligned
  
• control your sink
  

If you do those things you won't side load, you will contact the upwind wheel 1st, you won't land hard.

[Mick]

Charlie -- Right on, simple and correct.

[FastEddieB]

I used to own a couple Citabrias at different times.

 

On wheel landings, I found myself doing something that was either a bad habit or an effective tool.

 

The gear on the Citabria is undamped and VERY springy. You have to be fast with slight forward pressure to hold the plane on when it touches without bouncing.

 

I found that wheel landings were MUCH easier for me if I rolled one wheel on first. Without a crosswind, I still found rolling on the right wheel first made the plane much less likely to bounce.

 

Why right? As an instructor, I had gotten used to looking out to the right when landing in general. From the back seat of a Citabria, you absolutely have to look out one side or the other to see anything, and looking out the right remained my habit.

 

I don't know if being right-handed had anything to do with anything or not, but rolling the right wheel on first felt much more natural to me.

 

Not advocating this, though it did help me. Probably only peripherally related to this thread's topic.

[Jim Meade]

We should all be able to consistently and smoothly land in a steady cross wind on the upwind wheel. If we don't, we introduce a side load. There is no alternative because if the wing is not turning into the wind and rudder holding the nose straight down the runway, the airplane is drifting downwind, creating a sideload.

 

I hear you on wheel landing a Citabria, Eddie, I've done it but won't brag about my skill in that regard. It sounds like you landed slightly tail low, based on your inferred blocked vision. I always landed with the tail pretty high - at least level, and from the front seat, so I had a different view.

[Roger Lee]

Hi Ed,

I'm with you on your points, but we both know it isn't real world for 100% of the LSA owners or 100% perfect landings for everyone. I have never bent anything or really had a bad CT landing, but that doesn't mean it couldn't happen tomorrow or the same to anyone here. I'm sure all those that have bent or damaged their plane said "Damn that has never happened before". I heard that a million times as a fireman responding to calls. There is always a first time.

One gear leg will buckle or bend sooner if impacted hard verses if two or three help spread the impact. Everyone may advocate always having greased landings, but you and I have been around the block enough to know that isn't so and if it was we wouldn't have all the damaged CT's and other LSA gear legs out there. Most of you never hear about the number of hard or bad landings and bent gear legs and some collapsed nose gear. More than you may think and it wasn't because it was a good landing.

[Jim]

Lots of replies, but not in the direction I wanted to go. Let me rephrase the question.

 

If an aircraft is unbalanced laterally, such as it is flying solo, is it possible to track the center line with the wings level. I think the answer is no. Intuitively, I'd think that the pilot's side wheel would have to be low, but that's not what's happening and I'm having an awful time trying to visualize what is.

[Roger Lee]

Hi Jim,

 

The answer is yes you can.

It is all cross control and should be very manageable. I'm a lot heavier than you so my weight on one side for balance is more affected. I always land flat and straight with a cross wind. I never use the one wheel low approach and with the CT and I have never had to because it has plenty of control. If you are too slow and use full stall landings you could run out of control and authority when needed in a specific direction. The stronger the wind always makes me keep 2700-3000 rpm (low rpm solo, higher rpm fro gross or higher) to touch and a little extra speed for the most authoritative and most directional control on my surfaces. Too slow and you could run out of control authority. I can put the CT down in 28-30 cross winds all day and not have any issues.

 

Control authority and the amount of that in any direction can be affected by speed and to me too slow means loss of both in a tight or emergency situation. I like solid authoritative controls and not mushy ones. It's easy to show control differences at stall and with speed. I know there will be people here that love full stalls, but go to altitude and drop the speed to 40 knots and feel the controls and then just bump it up to 60 and see the difference. In an emergency I want all the control and affect of each i can get.

[Ed Cesnalis]

Lots of replies, but not in the direction I wanted to go. Let me rephrase the question.

 

If an aircraft is unbalanced laterally, such as it is flying solo, is it possible to track the center line with the wings level. I think the answer is no. Intuitively, I'd think that the pilot's side wheel would have to be low, but that's not what's happening and I'm having an awful time trying to visualize what is.

 

Yes Jim it is possible to track the center line with wings level. The tail must be directly behind the nose. because crabbing will initiate drifting when wings are level.

 

If you have a low pilot side wheel / wing it will create a drift to the left due to the lateral component of the wings lift and will need to be countered with opposite rudder creating an unwanted crab.

[FastEddieB]

 

 

If an aircraft is unbalanced laterally, such as it is flying solo, is it possible to track the center line with the wings level. I think the answer is no.

 

Why?

 

A tiny bit of down aileron on the "heavy" side will keep the wings level throughout the landing.

 

I suppose there may be a tiny amount of yaw created due to the increased induced drag on that side, but if so its so tiny I've never noticed it.

 

Edited to add: I think the last three posts were all composed simultaneously!

[Jim Meade]

If you touch down at a fast enough speed the relative wind is all on the nose - there is no apparent crosswind.

[Adam]

I watched Adam's video and noticed he landed right wheel first. I land level with a passenger, but aways right wheel first when flying solo. I always have to change or rotate the right tire before the left one. Anyone else notice this?

 

Any landing I make and don't kill myself is a good landing... Catalina is always a fun landing in a light sport... there is typically a nice ocean breeze (nothing between Catalina and Hawaii to stop it) and the winds are usually swirling just a bit on the runway ends. People crash here every year, downward wind gusts have been known to push people down below the runway on a low approach, some people get confused by a crown in the runway, land and think they dont have enough space to stop and over brake and either nose over or lose control. I am not an expert pilot by any means, I'm a relatively low hour rookie, but in remembering the day I was being pushed pretty hard to the left and was dipping the right wing in an attempt to keep centered. Catalina was recently featured in one of the monthly aviation magazines as one of the top 10 "fun and challenging" airports to land at. The cliffs are pretty steep, runway sits chisled at 1601 ft above the Pacific. On a no wind day I'm usually pretty good at staying on the center line. Of course the other explanation is I just sucked that day... In which case I revert to my first sentence, any landing I make and don't kill myself is a good landing

[FastEddieB]

 

 

A tiny bit of down aileron on the "heavy" side will keep the wings level throughout the landing.

 

 

I think I need to clarify.

 

I DO always strive to land wing low into the wind, necessitating a landing on the upswind wheel first.

 

The only way to land on the mains at the same time in a crosswind is to either...

 

...land in a crab, or...

 

...kick the plane straight at the last moment so as to land flat but before the plane begins to drift.

 

The first makes me cringe, and the timing of the second seems to give both me and my students problems.

 

But whatever works!

 

Roger, I'd love to see a YouTube video of you landing level in a strong crosswind to analyze exactly how you're doing it. Do you have one?

[Ed Cesnalis]

...kick the plane straight at the last moment so as to land flat but before the plane begins to drift.

 

 

Eddie,

 

Is there a point in time after the aircraft is 'kicked straight' and before it begins to drift?

 

I say no there isn't, the wind was already blowing across the runway so you were already drifting but countered by the crab angle. Once you are strait you are still drifting but no longer countering it.

 

If you replace the crab with a low wing then you could maintain the center-line without drift while you touch down otherwise the side-load is present.

[FastEddieB]

 

 

 

Eddie,

 

Is there a point in time after the aircraft is 'kicked straight' and before it begins to drift?

 

 

 

I think there is - the plane has a certain amount of inertia, so it takes a moment to begin to drift.

 

I think.

 

Let's see if YouTube in my friend.

[FastEddieB]

YouTube IS my friend...

 

 

I just watched the first landing so far, but I think it makes my point.

 

My guess is that if Roger manages to touch down wings level in a crosswind, it's got to be a variation on this theme.

[Roger Lee]

Hi Eddie,

 

That's more or less it. I just correct the crab a little sooner. If you can't keep the aircraft flying straight down the runway then the winds too strong and or you have run out of rudder and neither is good.

On the video, landings 1, 3, 4 and 5 did pretty good and turned the plane straight just before touch as they should.

Landings 2, 6, 7 and 8 were bad because they never corrected for the crab until they were touching which was side loading the gear.

[Jim Meade]

Seven is a good example of how not to do a crab-kickout landing. He started the kickout at about the right height, but as the nose was coming around the upwind wing was going faster and generated a little more lift. As a result, it rose and the downwind gear planted first.

What we need is to install a device to measure our side loading and then all of us will know exactly what our landings are doing. Anyone know of anything that will do that inexpensively?

[knolde]

Interesting, I never have thought about it. I agree with Charlie Tango and Roger that on landing you spread the wealth--land on the mains. I guess one of the reasons I really like reading this fourm is that I find myself thinking about new things. For example, I do not ever remember thinking about landing with a passinger or specifically landing on one wheel. I consentrate on the centerline, drift killed, and being level when touching down. Certainly, in a stiff crosswind landing on one wheel is often the way in, but for the most part I must agree with Roger about spreading the impact of landing out--so I really try for the mains to ensure that, in the event that there a down draft or the gust just quits, the plane comes down on the mains to distribute the shock loading.

 

Thanks for the brain cell activation.

 

Dr, Ken Nolde, N840KN

[FastEddieB]

As a reminder, here's the official take on it (from the Airplane Flying Handbook):

 

CROSSWIND ROUNDOUT (FLARE)

Generally, the roundout can be made like a normal landing approach, but the application of a crosswind correction is continued as necessary to prevent drifting.

Since the airspeed decreases as the roundout progresses, the flight controls gradually become less effective. As a result, the crosswind correction being held will become inadequate. When using the wing- low method, it is necessary to gradually increase the deflection of the rudder and ailerons to maintain the proper amount of drift correction.

Do not level the wings; keep the upwind wing down throughout the roundout. If the wings are leveled, the airplane will begin drifting and the touchdown will occur while drifting. Remember, the primary objective is to land the airplane without subjecting it to any side loads that result from touching down while drifting.

 

CROSSWIND TOUCHDOWN

If the crab method of drift correction has been used throughout the final approach and roundout, the crab must be removed the instant before touchdown by applying rudder to align the airplane’s longitudinal axis with its direction of movement. This requires timely and accurate action. Failure to accomplish this will result in severe side loads being imposed on the landing gear.

If the wing-low method is used, the crosswind correction (aileron into the wind and opposite rudder) should be maintained throughout the roundout, and the touchdown made on the upwind main wheel.

During gusty or high wind conditions, prompt adjustments must be made in the crosswind correction to assure that the airplane does not drift as the airplane touches down.

 

Comment to follow...

[FastEddieB]

Comment...

 

For me the key is this, regarding the crab method:

 

"This requires timely and accurate action. Failure to accomplish this will result in severe side loads being imposed on the landing gear."

 

And my experience is that pilots have trouble getting the timing right. I know I do.

 

When the upwind wheel is rolled on first, there is no unusual load on it if the plane isn't drifting. And if the plane IS drifting, landing flat will not spare the gear the "severe side loads" referenced above.

 

But use whatever works for you - I know what works best for me!

[Roger Lee]

This is what happens when one wheel takes too much load either straight down or side load.

You don't necessarily have to wait to the last second. Depending on wind strength it can be done with cross control well in advance of the runway. This will also let you know if you even have enough rudder authority to keep the plane straight before touch. Improper tire pressure will only add to your woes.