Touching down right wheel first when flying solo

[FastEddieB]

Poor technique can lead to damaged components no matter which technique you use.

 

I've been doing and teaching "wing down/one wheel first" landings for a long, long time and have never damaged a wheel.

 

The two methods are each viable, at least if you don't have low mounted engines out on the wings.

 

You can see in the video I posted that even experienced jet pilots can have trouble with the timing involved in landing straight before the plane drifts. But they don't have the option of "wing low", and winds of the magnitude shown in the video are probably rare and would test any pilot's skill.

 

I actually don't think I could jump in a tailwheel airplane and manage a wings level wheel landing. If it counts for anything I have about 1,500 hours of tailwheel time, much of it instructing, all of it "wing down method". Yet to see a damaged wheel and I've yet to fall victim to a fully developed ground loop*.

 

Again, Roger, next time you go up on a crosswindy day I'd love to see a video that shows the gear of your plane on landing - not to find fault but to analyze how you do it.

 

 

 

*I say "fully developed" because I did have a student manage to get a swerve going that was big enough to take us off the runway and into the berry bushes at Opa Locka West back in the day. No damage, but we did have berry stains on the belly that had to be cleaned off!

[FastEddieB]

Came across this video, showing pretty much how I would do a crosswind wheel landing in a taildragger:

 

 

 

I might be a little more aggressive keeping the tail up after the landing - I like the tail either up or down - there be dragons in between!

[Adam]

I can't imagine anyone still flying an SW without the Matco wheel upgrade... I figured by now everyone would have visited Roger (in the west) for an upgrade! (or Tad in the East)

 

I'm a craber in a low wing, a wing dipper in a high wing. Something not yet discussed is the fact that the CT has a steerable nose wheel tied to the rudder pedals. When crabbing, your nose wheel on low final is not pointed straight down the runway until you kick out the crab. Works fine as long as you kick the crab out before the front wheel touches down. I think provided technique is good, either method works just fine, its a case of when technique is poor or something else happens you get the old "pilot failed to maintain directional control..." NTSB statement :wacko:

[Ed Cesnalis]

I can't imagine anyone still flying an SW without the Matco wheel upgrade... I figured by now everyone would have visited Roger (in the west) for an upgrade! (or Tad in the East)...

 

I'm still on my original brakes, on my early 2006 CTSW.

[FastEddieB]

Marc Inegno (sp?) wheels and brakes on the Sky Arrow, operating at about the same weight as the CT.

 

Even with a free-castoring nosewheel, which uses a bit more brakes for steering, original brakes from 2007 and about 400 hours.

 

And wheels still in one piece...

 

...so far!

[FredG]

Re. Marc wheels, I have about 1,700 landing on my 2006 CTsw, original factory wheels, no failures, no problems.

[bseager]

I also have a 2006 CTSW with the original Marc wheels, no issues at all after about 1400 landings.

[FastEddieB]

Stall speed landings are more dangerous, its too easy to drop the last few feet, thump, bounce, porpoise.

 

 

Do you mean just in a crosswind, or in general?

 

In my opinion bouncing and porpoising is the result of too much speed, not too little.

[FastEddieB]

Slip landings in cross wind are the 'standard' being taught. But that doesnt mean landing on one wheel is mandatory.

 

 

Well, it kinda does. If you're in a side slip on landing, you will de facto have a wing down into the wind.

 

I can't see how to do that without landing one wheel first - unless you roll the plane level and try to touch down before drift develops. But then you have the same timing issues you do when kicking a crab straight.

 

All of this can be done, of course. Don't change a thing if you've developed a successful technique. I just use what's easiest for me and what has been easiest to teach to primary students.

 

Even if you are  pushed a bit off the center in a cross wind, its better to try to get two wheels down.

 

In my book, better to land on one wheel without drift than to touch down with two (or three!) at the same time while drifting.

[coppercity]

Have to agree with Fast Eddie on this one. I use and teach the wing low method in light aircraft including tailwheel. I like it because I feel I can get a handle on how much rudder is required on final at a good speed for cross control. If I am running out of rudder at that point I discontinue the approach because I certainly wont have enough to land straight without drift as the speed is bled off near touchdown. We have crosswinds in Bisbee this time of year that exceed the rudder and aileron authority of the CT often so I like to know that early on in the approach. I feel better landing on one wheel and reducing the chance of side load.

[Roger Lee]

When done right you shouldn't have any drift with a cross control out of the crab. If the wind is going to push you off the runway then it will usually do it with either technique. If the plane is out of the crab and lined up with the center line and flying down the center line why would there be any drift? Flying straight with the nose down the center line is flying straight. You saw in Eddie's video the jets that did the crab approach. Some of them did not use enough rudder before touch and that was just poor technique. Not a single jet used a low wing approach.

 

With either method you either have enough control to handle the wind or you don't and with either method that can be determined on short final.

 

 

I think either method is fine and both work when used correctly. I just haven't found a need or a time I needed a one wheel landing. Some planes don't have near the rudder authority that a CT does and the amount of control surface on each individual plane, a person's selected landing speed and their skill level makes a difference. When the wind is really strong (25+) I use zero flaps, 60-65 (a little more than normal) for an approach, test the straight cross control for a few seconds on approach to make sure I can get the plane straight before I get to the runway. This lets you know if you have enough rudder and checks to see if the wind is actually really too strong to land safely. If you can't keep it down the runway and the wind blows you off the runway then it's too strong to land and time to look for a different runway some where. I crab right down until approximately 15' above the runway and then straighten it to land. I fly it right down to the ground under some power. If anything goes terribly wrong at this stage then a full throttle recovery is easily done. Once touched apply full aileron into the wind side to help kill any lift and stick just a tad forward to keep the plane and or wing from any unexpected lifting and give the nose wheel good directional traction. This is more or less flying into the wind on the ground. The plane is considered flying until it is at a full stop. If on landing you loose control and the wind gets under a wing and starts to tip you and touch the other wing to the ground then once you are that high one wing in the air the aileron has lost too much control and the fastest recovery to save a wing low from a ground contact is to turn towards the low wing. It will immediately kill the wing with all the lifting action and right the plane because you dump any wind bearing on the high wing. Then once the plane is saved regain directional control. This all happens very quickly, but works like a charm. In the earlier days I have used it many times to save a high wind low wing problem. If the wing is still low, but up in the air then aileron might be enough. Once the wing is so high and the other wing is ready to touch the ground the aileron has lost most of its control and the high wing is fully against the wind like a piece of plywood in a high wind. Like a car in a skid you turn towards the skid or low wing in this case. Like a sail on a boat it will kill any exposed flat surface to the wind, kill all lift to that wing and it immediately drop back down.

[FastEddieB]

Roger,

 

Sounds like you have your technique down to a science - do not change a thing!

 

 

When done right you shouldn't have any drift with a cross control out of the crab....You saw in Eddie's video the jets that did the crab approach. Some of them did not use enough rudder before touch and that was just poor technique. Not a single jet used a low wing approach.

 

 

The key in the above is the first three words.

 

None of the jets used a low wing approach since a low wing landing could drag a wingtip or a nacelle, as stated before. I also imagine extended slips may be rough on passengers.

 

What I take away from the videos is that even experienced, professional airline pilots can struggle with the timing and amount of rudder when kicking the plane straight at the end. We watch them and critique the pilots, as if we could have done better. I think the word is "hubris"!

[Ed Cesnalis]

Stall speed landings are more dangerous, its too easy to drop the last few feet, thump, bounce, porpoise.

 

And the crab could result in a side-gear crunch. Crabbing is frowned on by trainers now because it requires a lot more timing skill to straighten out at the last few seconds. Slip landings in cross wind are the 'standard' being taught. But that doesnt mean landing on one wheel is mandatory.

 

I agree with Roger and I wondered if it had mechanical impact to land on one wheel. Even if you are pushed a bit off the center in a cross wind, its better to try to get two wheels down.

 

Btw, make sure the the brake is all the way off before landing. Gotta let those wheels run as freely as they can.

 

Full stall landings are only a bad idea in a CT if you don't know where the ground is, you have to get close enough first. To prevent dropping in those last few feet move the stick back to the stop as you sink, if you freeze you are more likely to drop even though you have lots of flare left. The throttle will control the sink as well but you have to use it.

 

It is better to land on 1 wheel than 2 in a crosswind because you are set up for the next gust. If you watch Adam approach and land you can see both a series of wing dips and a wing held low. The series of corrections can set you up to land on both wheels where the continuous correction lasts and sets you up for 1 wheel.

 

The visual comes from the runway heading but the plane is flying in the relative wind. The one wheel approach should mean that you are drifting/side slipping into the wind at the same speed the wind is drifting over the runway and the result is similar to a constant bank into the wind and a track over the center line. A series of corrections means your wings are sometimes level and sometimes banked and you are sometimes drifting with the crosswind and sometimes drifting back into the crosswind. The strait line ( 1 wheel ) is preferable to me because it is a single correction and there is no side loading.

 

Mammoth presents landing challenges on a regular basis that prevent 2 wheel landings. If it is turbulent 1 wheel contact means a soft contact. If you encounter sink that you cannot counter close to the runway you are going to contact hard and if you attitude is somewhat normal it will be on both wheels.

 

If you contact one wheel only then your vertical speed was under control.

 

If you contact both wheels your wings are level which gives a crosswind gust more opportunity to "get under your wing" much like forward stick can give a tail wind gust more opportunity to give you a wheel barrow ride.

[Roger Lee]

Like they say: There is more than one way to skin a cat. (Hope someone here doesn't come back and says it taste like chicken. )

 

It's like a lot of things in flying or any en devour There is more than one way, both are correct, both work and use whatever makes you have good landings and whatever your comfortable with.

It's not always about the technique it took to get there, but the final result. If it works, it works.

[Tom Baker]

When done right you shouldn't have any drift with a cross control out of the crab.

 

The cross control you mention would be a slip. You are changing from a crab to a slip in the round out and flare even if you think you are not. The only way to land in a crosswind without a side load on the the gear is with a slip, unless you have crosswind landing gear installed on the airplane.

Personally I like to use a crab right down to the flare and transition to the slip in the round out. I find students have a hard time with this, so I teach to make the transition while on a short final.

[Ed Cesnalis]

Like they say: There is more than one way to skin a cat. (Hope someone here doesn't come back and says it taste like chicken. )

 

It's like a lot of things in flying or any en devour There is more than one way, both are correct, both work and use whatever makes you have good landings and whatever your comfortable with.

It's not always about the technique it took to get there, but the final result. If it works, it works.

 

 

I don't buy, if it works, it works. I'm hung up on what if?

 

What if:

• I land on 2 wheels with neutralized controls and a crosswind gust lifts my wing?
  
• my timing is a little off and I side load the gear?
  
• I land on 2 wheels but my direction is off? There is built in correction when landing on 1 wheel.
  
• I push forward on the stick for steering but my tail and mains come up?
  
• I land without flaps and 70kts and then crash? Did I change the result from a bent airplane to a dead girlfriend?
  
• I fly a big pattern and low approach and loose my engine upon a throttle adjustment?
  

I can't control the conditions and I can't even see the wind sheer but I can at least position my controls and my CT, as well as configure and slow to where I will have the best chance to deal with wind sheer or a gear failure.

[Ed Cesnalis]

...The only way to land in a crosswind without a side load on the the gear is with a slip, unless you have crosswind landing gear installed on the airplane...

 

Eddie says that there is time before the drift develops. Which is correct?

 

I'm siding with Eddie. Here is how I see it. First while in the crab the plane is flying coordinated in the relative wind that does not agree with the runway heading. As you kick-out the first thing that happens is a transition from coordinated flight to a skid but you maintain the runway heading until the skid develops into a turn. At first the drift isn't there but if you don't get it on the ground or add correction you will soon be drifting at the speed of the crosswind.

 

The longer the time interval between coming out of the crab and touch down the more the plane will drift with the wind

[Tom Baker]

Eddie says that there is time before the drift develops. Which is correct?

 

I'm siding with Eddie. Here is how I see it. First while in the crab the plane is flying coordinated in the relative wind that does not agree with the runway heading. As you kick-out the first thing that happens is a transition from coordinated flight to a skid but you maintain the runway heading until the skid develops into a turn. At first the drift isn't there is but if you don't get it on the ground or add correction you will soon be drifting at the speed of the crosswind.

 

The longer the time interval between coming out of the crab and touch down the more the plane will drift with the wind

 

When you apply rudder to "kick out of the crab" the airplane is also going to bank in the direction of the applied rudder, but it might be slightly delayed. If you don't apply opposite aileron the airplane will turn off runway heading. This along with the moving airmass will cause a side load. Like I said if you don't have a side load you are making the correction even if you don't think you are.

[sandpiper]

My preference and practice for crosswind landings has always been to touch down on one wheel in a slip. Use what works best for you.

[Ed Cesnalis]

Charlie said "As you kick-out the first thing that happens is a transition from coordinated flight to a skid but you maintain the runway heading until the skid develops into a turn."

 

Tom said "When you apply rudder to "kick out of the crab" the airplane is also going to bank in the direction of the applied rudder, but it might be slightly delayed."

 

====================================================

 

We are saying exactly the same thing above. The tendency to turn from the runway heading is what causes the side load and the slight delay is the window where you can avoid side loading.

[FastEddieB]

 

 

When you apply rudder to "kick out of the crab" the airplane is also going to bank in the direction of the applied rudder, but it might be slightly delayed.

 

In the jet video, those pilots do manage, for the most part, to "plant" the plane wings level, in spite of the rudder being kicked.

 

I guess they're doing so in that "slight delay" you're referring to.

 

 

[Jim]

I want one of these on my CT.

[Tom Baker]

OK, my slight delay and the time before the drift starts is like the time that a piston stops at TDC and starts going back down. Yes it happens but the period of time would be very hard to measure. How is a turn measured? Is it in heading or ground track? If it is heading your turn starts as soon as you kick out of the crab and not when you are aligned with the runway. BTW to stop the roll that goes with the kick out you will have to use some opposite aileron. If it has to do with track as soon as you start to remove the crosswind correction the airplane will start to drift. If you don't switch from the crab to a slip type correction you will have a side load. After touchdown if you don't continue the slip type correction you will still have a side load. That being said there are two ways to have a side load. The first is landing in a crab or not stopping the drift. This will cause a load from the downwind side. The second is to have to much of a slip at touchdown. This will cause a side load from the upwind side. With the crab and the slip the airplanes axis is not aligned with the runway. With the drift the axis is aligned, but the airplane is moving to the side. What we want is the airplane axis and track to be aligned with the runway with no drift at the same time. IMO the only way to do this is with the correct amount of slip.

As for the airliners they may try to kick out of the crab before touchdown, but it sure feels like they have some pretty good side load at touchdown in a crosswind. Also for them when you see big amounts of crab the wind speed is really strong. The wind amounts we fly in would yield very little crab for them because of thier increased airspeed. The slower you are the greater crab you need for the same crosswind.