How are your Sensonich props holding up

[Scrapman1959]

Our new June 2011 CTLS came with Sensonich prop. After a month it looked like a 600 hour Neuform prop. We got FD to send us a new Nueform and now have over 500 hours on that plane and Nueform prop. We fly in the rain when necessary and land daily on a turf strip. How are you guys doing with your Sensonich props? Please include in your response the hours of service and any flying in the rain or turf usage. We are getting ready to order a new plane and need to make a choice on props. Thank you.

[Roger Lee]

I have a Sensenich with a couple hundred hours. It looks new and not a mark on it. Of course I only land on asphalt runways and don't fly in the rain. The issue I think with yours is rain or water will always erode a composite prop Grass strips tend to be wet a lot in the early morning hours and wet grass is as bad as rain and maybe worse. I was in Raleigh, NC last year and was surprised at how much debris was on the props with only 1-2 landings on grass. I work on some other LSA that have Sensenich 2 and 3 blade props and they are all in very good shape. I think it has to do more with your area than the prop itself. The other thing that is really hard on props is leaving them outside, whether on a permanent tie down or for 1-3 weeks during travel. I always put prop covers on mine any time I travel. UV and heat are hard on composite props.

 

Maybe the older Sensenich had a different leading edge. Mine has a metal edge.

 

Not running the engine rpm up on loose surface runways will help too.

[Scrapman1959]

Thanks Roger. It's always hangered even while I'm at work for the day. The one we had, also had a metal edge. It was shiny like chrome, and right where that stopped, the damage started. How does the Neuform hold up like it does in rain? It doesn't seem to effect it all. That outer covering is made of something that is somewhat pliable. You can almost make a dent in it with your finger nail, and it smoothes right back when you pull away. it really resist chipping too.

[Roger Lee]

I have seen many Neuform's chipped and eroded. I have seen quite a few that have linear cracks in the blades too, both on the front and back. Neuform's are definitely not supposed to be exposed 24/7 and that's right from the Mfg.

[Scrapman1959]

Do you see them loosing paint just aft of that metal leading edge?

[coppercity]

Mine is loosing a little paint behind the metal strip, just paint though nothing to worry about. I swapped out when I had a 1000hrs on my Neuform. The Neuform was showing some cracks, may have just been in the clear cote but won't know until I send it in for inspection. Overall happy with the Sensenich after a 100hrs just smoothed out the paint chips a little with fine sandpaper.

[Scrapman1959]

Eric, I don't suppose u ever find yourself in any rain out there?

[Jim]

Lets face it, the Sensinich props are flaky. FD would make them standard if they were all that much better, dealers could easily put them on if they were better than the factory Neuforms.

 

Sigh.

[Adam]

I'm no mechanic, nor do I pretend to be one on TV...

 

My observation (lacking in any scientific data) based on owning a CTSW with Neuform and a CTLS with Sensenich is...

 

The Neuform seemed to hold up much better over a much longer time period. The Sensenich seemed to be prone to picking up small nicks quickly. Both flown only on paved runways, both stored in hangar when not flying.

 

FD (in the USA) started shipping new planes exclusively with Sensenich on the CTLS a few years ago. At the time there was no place in the USA to get a Neuform prop repaired or serviced (no longer the case). The CTLSi went back to a Neuform because the prop was the first to be tested and approved for use on the fuel injected engine (thats what I was told by FD anyways). Wasn't a judgment call on which prop was better, more a case of FD / Rotax using the "standard" (in Europe anyways) Neuform prop first.

[Scrapman1959]

Thx all. I am hearing what I already observed in my own experience. Sensonich just not as tough as Neuform in all around uses, including driving in rain and nicking due to small debris commonly encountered in turf operations. I hoped since mine was an early installation maybe they had made some improvements. It doesn't sound like they have made any changes.

[Roger Lee]

Remember that the Neuform is a 65" prop and the Sensenich is a 68". Running it up on a loose surface with will pick up debris easier. Pick your run up area well. I have seen more Neuform's with damage than Sensenich and I haven't seen one Sensenich with cracks in the blades, but have seen and heard of many with Neuform. You will most likely see Sensenich back on new CTLS's. There was a reason for the back track on Neuform to the new CTLS, but that is gone now.

 

Time to go. I have a new first tine engine start this morning.

[Scrapman1959]

I didn't realize the Sensonich was 3 " more diameter. Thats all I need is the prop 1.5 " s closer to the turf and debris. Thx for that info Roger. That will seal the deal for me on staying with a Neuform. Just to ad to the discussion, the Neuforms you have seen with cracks I bet are many years older And may have spent significant time in the sun versus the relatively late model Sensonich props you are inspecting.

 

 

[coppercity]

Eric, I don't suppose u ever find yourself in any rain out there?

 

Not yet, but hoping the Monsoon starts soon! I will report back if we ever get any rain and I fly the Sensenich thru it.

 

My Neuform got plenty of chips in it as well, though they chip in the trailing edge more then the leading edge.

[sandpiper]

:blink: Flying in the rain? Wouldn't our plastic planes melt?? :mellow:

[Roger Lee]

Air doesn't erode props. Something has to be there to cause erosion or damage. (Water (rain ) wet grass, sand course or fine, rocks, pebbles, sticks or twigs, even some bugs are hard enough to leave marks. If your getting erosion figure out what your stirring up with the prop. I use a 68" Sensenich have have not a mark on mine. Whether you have a 65" or 68" you will pick debris up off the ground if you run the engine up high enough. Use lower rpms to do run ups or any thing on the ground.

 

Eric and I don't worry about all these, just buzzards, they leave marks too.

[Scrapman1959]

Well Roger, when it's 90 degrees and you have 1200 ft of soft turf in front of you because it just rained, you be the one to go easy on the rpm's. I don't have that luxury and need a prop that can take a little shit and not show it. I do have an abort takeoff marker at 800 ft if the airspeed isn't at 43 knts by then.

[Roger Lee]

Maybe a better prop choice would be a Warp Drive if you are having erosion problems. It has its good and bad points just like the composites, but can handle erosion and chipping much better.

[Scrapman1959]

I have had heard that prop is very tough. What are it's weaknesses?

[Roger Lee]

It is tough because it is solid carbon fiber and that's what makes it a good choice for rough and dirt runway landings. What makes it tough is also its draw back. If you hit a rock on a runway you'll most like fly home verses a composite prop. If you strike something more solid it will stay together better and transmit more emergency into the engine and gearbox. The 68" Sensenich will out climb it, but the speeds in cruise are the same. It's just because of the shape of the Warp. It's a widely used prop and has been for many years. It is an easy prop to repair small nicks. It can be field repaired with baking soda and superglue and at home with epoxy.

 

 

[Scrapman1959]

Thx for the info on the Warp Drive. I assume it's climb performance is degraded by the fact that it is a stiffer prop and doesn't flatten out a bit in climb like a more flexible prop? Do they all twist and flatten a bit when under heavy torque such as ground roll and climb? Do you know if the warp is much heavier than Neuform or Sensonich?

[Ed Cesnalis]

I have had 3 warp drives, 2 on my 06 CTSW and they are indeed durable.

 

I have read that they lack performance when mounted on direct drive engines and are not favored for lycs and continentals. Their performance on geared 912s seems to be good or at least good enough. My CT has always been a good performer compared to other CTs.

 

FD doesn't like them due to their weight, my current one, Roger's old prop, has tape instead of nickel for leading edge protection and is therefore lighter.

 

If the climb performance is lacking due to stiffness then that could be addressed with less pitch.

 

The Warp Drive props are inexpensive and simple so they won't require the expensive maintenance that we see on the Neuforms.

[Roger Lee]

The Warp is heavier than the Neuform and Sensenich. It is the design of the Warp. It looks more like a wing with a flat wing under belly and curved top.

 

The Sensenich can be purchased with a stiffer blade verses one with a little flex. (flex is normal). During my testing it didn't make any difference.

The Sensenich will out climb the Neuform too when setup properly, but not as much as the Warp. I have tested this under quite heavy aircraft loads. All our CT's with a solo pilot will out climb a two up CT with average weight people.. Weight is everything.

 

The Warp is a good choice if you don't go over 68" and no nickle edge because of weight, on dirty fields , running in the rain and is a less expensive prop at about $950. It will get you home after rock dings where a composite might not depending on the size of the rock of course.

[Ed Cesnalis]

Weight is everything.

 

Informal testing of climb performance can be misleading. Once you have determined that the Sensenich is outperforming the Warp you would need to switch props and confirm that the advantage stayed with the prop and wasn't from weight or airframe. You would have to rule out pitch adjustment as well.

[Roger Lee]

Hi Ed,

 

All my testing with with 6 2006 CTSW's with different props flown side by side with only me setting the final WOT rpm and matching weights. No other prop company in the US or most other places can claim or duplicate that. Not to mention I flew the Warp on my own plane with the same weight. Flying up to Page with the Warp and 5 other CTSW's I was always last to clear the Mogion Rim (hard straight up climb) and would come close to having to circle out and make another run at it. When I switched to the Sensenich not only did I make the climb in one run I beat 4 out of 5 and I was 100 lbs heavier.

 

No matter which prop I used the cruise was the same speed at the same rpm proving the WOT rpm was set the same.

[Ed Cesnalis]

Sounds informal but valid. Flying at high altitude my priorities are:

1. Performance at altitude
   
2. Cruise Speed
   
3. Climb performance.
   

Climb goes last only because the climb performance is already so good. My most challenging climbs are out of Mammoth and here I generally take advantage of the lift that I can usually find. Me and a gaggle of turkey vultures were climbing from the runway at 1,100'/min yesterday. Of course just before that my rate was about 25'/min.