FlyingMonkey Posted August 25, 2013 Report Share Posted August 25, 2013 Did my first oil change today. Was a piece of cake using instructions Roger posted on sportpilottalk.com. The Rotax oil filter says to seat it 3/4 turn after gasket contact. Was not sure where exactly that was, so I just made it hand tight since that is how oil filters get set on every vehicle I have ever worked on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger Lee Posted August 25, 2013 Report Share Posted August 25, 2013 Some take 3/4 turn to mean that just as the rubber gasket starts to touch the metal to only go 3/4 turn. It won't be tight enough. If it isn't tight enough what's the worst that can happen? A little oil leaks and gets all over the engine and the bottom of the plane, no big deal or maybe it loosens a little more and you loose all your oil and the engine seizes. Are you starting to second guess yourself yet? Are you still sure it's okay? Did you forget to turn the thing-a-ma-jig? Hopefully it is really hand tight. Just a little humor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FlyingMonkey Posted August 25, 2013 Author Report Share Posted August 25, 2013 You are cold, Roger. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FastEddieB Posted August 25, 2013 Report Share Posted August 25, 2013 Some take 3/4 turn to mean that just as the rubber gasket starts to touch the metal to only go 3/4 turn. It won't be tight enough. Isn't that what ROTAX calls for? The procedure I've seen and do is to run the filter down to gasket contact, score a mark on the filter, then rotate 3/4 turn from there. That seems to result in a VERY snug filter. I then put some torque-seal where I can see it on preflight. How do you do it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FastEddieB Posted August 25, 2013 Report Share Posted August 25, 2013 Here: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger Lee Posted August 25, 2013 Report Share Posted August 25, 2013 I turn it slightly past the touch then 3/4 turn. Some are taking the contact with the metal a little too literal and it's possible to be a little light on the tightening. It would be better to error on the slightly tighter, than slightly too loose. There have actually been people in the past who really did have a problem. If you literally use the the exact touch point then I would go 1 full turn. I try to make sure the rubber gasket is in complete contact rather than trying to eyeball the exact moment of touch. This might be 1/4 turn more than a guy that is too light. Truly I don't think it's that critical from working with Rotax over the years. Just make sure it's good and snug and I have never seen one come off or leak. Hand tight from touch is about 1 full turn. The spec isn't that close or critical, but was a good way to instruct and demonstrate to owners. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger Lee Posted August 25, 2013 Report Share Posted August 25, 2013 Fireman humor. Find a weakness and exploit it. You were a cop you know the drill. (SHHH, don't tell the Ed's ) sorry Eddie, I just couldn't resist. I told you I was bored and boredom gets me in trouble. :blush: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FlyingMonkey Posted August 25, 2013 Author Report Share Posted August 25, 2013 Fireman humor. Find a weakness and exploit it. You were a cop you know the drill. True enough! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FastEddieB Posted August 25, 2013 Report Share Posted August 25, 2013 It's probably just the pain meds kicking in - though with you it would be hard to tell! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
opticsguy Posted August 26, 2013 Report Share Posted August 26, 2013 John Wright puts paint on the filter and the engine so you know it's not turning on its own. Just check it ever once in a while. Speaking of oil on your plane. I once checked my oil without a paper towel, just looked at the level and stuck the dipstick back in. Well, 3-4 drops of oil fell onto the reservior exterior, and after 2 hours of flying the whole left side of my plane was covered in a film of oil. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Baker Posted August 26, 2013 Report Share Posted August 26, 2013 After a run up to operating temp and cool down you should not be able to loosen it by hand. If you can you didn't have it tight enough. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FlyingMonkey Posted August 26, 2013 Author Report Share Posted August 26, 2013 I put a sharpie mark on the rim if the filter and a matching mark on the mount. If it turns at all I will know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Meade Posted August 26, 2013 Report Share Posted August 26, 2013 I love this. Rotax puts out a spec and it's not right, or at least not right enough. I know one mechanic who put a filter wrench on and bore right down on it. It seems to me that the only right way to tighten a filter is the way each of us has decided on - one thing for sure, it's not what Rotax says. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FastEddieB Posted August 26, 2013 Report Share Posted August 26, 2013 John Wright puts paint on the filter and the engine so you know it's not turning on its own. Just check it ever once in a while. That's what the "Torque-Seal" does that I mentioned, custom made for the purpose: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FlyingMonkey Posted August 26, 2013 Author Report Share Posted August 26, 2013 I use torque seal in many places, for some reason it didn't seem right here. Not sure why, maybe because oil is involved. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sandpiper Posted August 26, 2013 Report Share Posted August 26, 2013 Did my first oil change today. Was a piece of cake using instructions Roger posted on sportpilottalk.com. The Rotax oil filter says to seat it 3/4 turn after gasket contact. Was not sure where exactly that was, so I just made it hand tight since that is how oil filters get set on every vehicle I have ever worked on. Did you pull the mag plug and safety it after inspection? Was it clean? Did you cut the filter open and check for content? And finally, did you make a log book entry? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger Lee Posted August 26, 2013 Report Share Posted August 26, 2013 A sharpie mark or torque seal works just fine. The Rotax way is the right way, but there is a little wiggle room. It doesn't need to be an exact torque value. It just needs to be secure enough not to leak. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FlyingMonkey Posted August 26, 2013 Author Report Share Posted August 26, 2013 Did you pull the mag plug and safety it after inspection? Was it clean? Did you cut the filter open and check for content? And finally, did you make a log book entry? Yes, I pulled the plug, it was completely clean of metal. Safety wired it as I found it when done. Pulled the log book out of the safe and made the entry this morning. I don't have a filter cutter, but I saved the filter so I can do that when I get the tool. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger Lee Posted August 26, 2013 Report Share Posted August 26, 2013 I have never seen anything in the filter, but a couple of carbon specs unless the mag plug is covered in metal. All oil that passes through the engine pass by the mag plug. It will look like it has a beard if you have a metal problem. I looked at a Rotax that ate a lifter. The metal was by then through out the engine. The mag plug looked like it had a fine dust like beard, washed the oil filter and found more fine dust metal in the filter, but not as much as you might think. Drained the oil tank over 3 very strong magnets and found metal dust there too. So unless you see signs in one place you usually won't find it in another. This is more a general statement and of course never say never, but seems to hold true 99% of the time. If something like this happens there will be many other signs you have an issue before you discover all this metal It is possible to see metal shards or chips on the mag plug that are some where else. That's not good because it means your gears in the gearbox are having a problem. Many people will never discover an issue in time. After about 200 hrs on an engine recommend an oil analysis once a year at the annual, not to mention Rotax wants this done too. For the I want documentation on this it's in the Rotax SB's as far back as the SB for the extended TBO times. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doug G. Posted August 26, 2013 Report Share Posted August 26, 2013 Roger, are you saying to not follow Rotax's written instructions on the oil change and not cut the filter and examine it? Why would that not be more important than the "recommendation" from Rotax to do an oil analysis? I asked about oil analysis once before and no one has done anything different because of trace amounts showing up in the analysis. Finding much stuff on the mag plug (ferrous) or in the filter (ferrous or non-ferrous) shows a real problem, not a potential future, maybe problem you get from oil analysis. It is kind of like my eye doctor who does an extra test now that photos the back of my eyes. It is nice that he can show me what it looks like, and tell me about any changes. I think, however, that he would be able to tell if there were problems just by looking. Nice tech, probably not necessary. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger Lee Posted August 26, 2013 Report Share Posted August 26, 2013 No, you should follow the Rotax oil filter recommendation. An oil analysis is like everything else it's just one tool to use in many to help maint. or alert you to any problems. The oil analysis finds many things things a cut filter won't show. It can even pin point where the problem may be because of the type of metal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doug G. Posted August 27, 2013 Report Share Posted August 27, 2013 Not to start another old discussion, but if it never detects enough to actually show a problem before either the filter, or some other indication via the engine or instrumentation, it ends up being interesting information at best. My engine is not going to dissolve microscopically to the point of being a problem without giving some indication that I can see, hear, or otherwise detect. Will it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FredG Posted August 27, 2013 Report Share Posted August 27, 2013 I have never heard an explanation of how an oil analysis result will change any maintenance practice or engine operating procedure. If the engine has good compression, a clean magnetic plug, and a clean oil filter, I have yet to hear how an oil analysis changes anything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger Lee Posted August 27, 2013 Report Share Posted August 27, 2013 yes your engine can deteriorate without you knowing or signs that you can see. The mag plug will not pick on any non ferrous metals and you have a few inside the engine. The oil analysis shows levels of Iron, Copper, Nickel, chrome, silver, magnesium, aluminum, lead, silicone, titanium, tin and moly. The mag plug will only pick up the elements with iron in them and all the others won't ever been seen by the eye nor will you know there is an issue until it's too late if you wait until the engine starts to break down. If it has gotten to the oil filter with discernible debris that usually means you are too late and the engine will need tear down or replacement. I have attached an oil analysis from a Rotax engine which has all these elements. You have most of these in or on components in your engine and by an abnormally high reading or an increasing trend the lab can come close to identifying the part(s) involved. Compression only tells you how well the valves are sealing and how your rings are and there are a whole lot more parts and components. Who here can tell us where most of these elements are in your engine? They are there. If your engine has a major failure even after 5-6 years or 800 + hrs. Rotax will help you out with a major failure, but only if you have very good records and they want to see this analysis. This help may be the difference between you paying $4K-$9K to fix a major melt down or $18K for a new engine. I know this first hand. A couple pieces of paper makes all the difference. It's your choice. A $20 oil analysis kit once a year or possibly $18K. Seems like a simple choice to me. Thank God I paid the $20 and kept good records along the way. Here is an old sample oil analysis from a while back. 694 hr. oil ROLEE-5647156-Saturday, February 05, 2011.pdf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FredG Posted August 27, 2013 Report Share Posted August 27, 2013 Roger, what did you do differently as a result of oil analysis? I don't see that in your reply. What major meltdown was found by oil analysis and only oil analysis? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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