FlyingMonkey Posted August 25, 2013 Report Posted August 25, 2013 Did my first oil change today. Was a piece of cake using instructions Roger posted on sportpilottalk.com. The Rotax oil filter says to seat it 3/4 turn after gasket contact. Was not sure where exactly that was, so I just made it hand tight since that is how oil filters get set on every vehicle I have ever worked on.
FastEddieB Posted August 25, 2013 Report Posted August 25, 2013 Some take 3/4 turn to mean that just as the rubber gasket starts to touch the metal to only go 3/4 turn. It won't be tight enough. Isn't that what ROTAX calls for? The procedure I've seen and do is to run the filter down to gasket contact, score a mark on the filter, then rotate 3/4 turn from there. That seems to result in a VERY snug filter. I then put some torque-seal where I can see it on preflight. How do you do it?
FlyingMonkey Posted August 25, 2013 Author Report Posted August 25, 2013 Fireman humor. Find a weakness and exploit it. You were a cop you know the drill. True enough!
FastEddieB Posted August 25, 2013 Report Posted August 25, 2013 It's probably just the pain meds kicking in - though with you it would be hard to tell!
opticsguy Posted August 26, 2013 Report Posted August 26, 2013 John Wright puts paint on the filter and the engine so you know it's not turning on its own. Just check it ever once in a while. Speaking of oil on your plane. I once checked my oil without a paper towel, just looked at the level and stuck the dipstick back in. Well, 3-4 drops of oil fell onto the reservior exterior, and after 2 hours of flying the whole left side of my plane was covered in a film of oil.
Tom Baker Posted August 26, 2013 Report Posted August 26, 2013 After a run up to operating temp and cool down you should not be able to loosen it by hand. If you can you didn't have it tight enough.
FlyingMonkey Posted August 26, 2013 Author Report Posted August 26, 2013 I put a sharpie mark on the rim if the filter and a matching mark on the mount. If it turns at all I will know.
Jim Meade Posted August 26, 2013 Report Posted August 26, 2013 I love this. Rotax puts out a spec and it's not right, or at least not right enough. I know one mechanic who put a filter wrench on and bore right down on it. It seems to me that the only right way to tighten a filter is the way each of us has decided on - one thing for sure, it's not what Rotax says.
FastEddieB Posted August 26, 2013 Report Posted August 26, 2013 John Wright puts paint on the filter and the engine so you know it's not turning on its own. Just check it ever once in a while. That's what the "Torque-Seal" does that I mentioned, custom made for the purpose:
FlyingMonkey Posted August 26, 2013 Author Report Posted August 26, 2013 I use torque seal in many places, for some reason it didn't seem right here. Not sure why, maybe because oil is involved.
sandpiper Posted August 26, 2013 Report Posted August 26, 2013 Did my first oil change today. Was a piece of cake using instructions Roger posted on sportpilottalk.com. The Rotax oil filter says to seat it 3/4 turn after gasket contact. Was not sure where exactly that was, so I just made it hand tight since that is how oil filters get set on every vehicle I have ever worked on. Did you pull the mag plug and safety it after inspection? Was it clean? Did you cut the filter open and check for content? And finally, did you make a log book entry?
FlyingMonkey Posted August 26, 2013 Author Report Posted August 26, 2013 Did you pull the mag plug and safety it after inspection? Was it clean? Did you cut the filter open and check for content? And finally, did you make a log book entry? Yes, I pulled the plug, it was completely clean of metal. Safety wired it as I found it when done. Pulled the log book out of the safe and made the entry this morning. I don't have a filter cutter, but I saved the filter so I can do that when I get the tool.
Doug G. Posted August 26, 2013 Report Posted August 26, 2013 Roger, are you saying to not follow Rotax's written instructions on the oil change and not cut the filter and examine it? Why would that not be more important than the "recommendation" from Rotax to do an oil analysis? I asked about oil analysis once before and no one has done anything different because of trace amounts showing up in the analysis. Finding much stuff on the mag plug (ferrous) or in the filter (ferrous or non-ferrous) shows a real problem, not a potential future, maybe problem you get from oil analysis. It is kind of like my eye doctor who does an extra test now that photos the back of my eyes. It is nice that he can show me what it looks like, and tell me about any changes. I think, however, that he would be able to tell if there were problems just by looking. Nice tech, probably not necessary.
Doug G. Posted August 27, 2013 Report Posted August 27, 2013 Not to start another old discussion, but if it never detects enough to actually show a problem before either the filter, or some other indication via the engine or instrumentation, it ends up being interesting information at best. My engine is not going to dissolve microscopically to the point of being a problem without giving some indication that I can see, hear, or otherwise detect. Will it?
FredG Posted August 27, 2013 Report Posted August 27, 2013 I have never heard an explanation of how an oil analysis result will change any maintenance practice or engine operating procedure. If the engine has good compression, a clean magnetic plug, and a clean oil filter, I have yet to hear how an oil analysis changes anything.
FredG Posted August 27, 2013 Report Posted August 27, 2013 Roger, what did you do differently as a result of oil analysis? I don't see that in your reply. What major meltdown was found by oil analysis and only oil analysis?
Jim Meade Posted August 27, 2013 Report Posted August 27, 2013 I have very limited experience with Rotax out-of-warranty support but certainly didn't get any indication that they would be as generous as Roger says for even failures that can be directly related to their product design. I'd like to see something more definitive than online forum chatter to support the idea that Rotax would care if an 800 hour engine had bad bearings. If one does an online search for oil analysis, one finds discussion, including a couple of good ones in AvWeb that don't indicate any operation or routine maintenance adjustments or deviations based on oil analysis. I'll grant that one may change oil more frequently to track the trends. Oil analysis is done using a spectrum analyzer. As Roger said, if you know the composition of various components you may hazard a guess as to what is showing a high wear rate. They may lead you to conclude that certain bearings, cam facings or other components are showing more wear than normal. But, not one article said that you operate or essentially maintain the engine any differently just because you suddenly have some indication that it is wearing abnormally.
FredG Posted August 27, 2013 Report Posted August 27, 2013 This is one example. Whose engine was this? Anyone special? What is the email address of Rotax to ask for such assistance?
FredG Posted August 27, 2013 Report Posted August 27, 2013 Roger, you say "if it is still off the charts then you may need some dis-assemblely to examine why this area seems to be in excessive wear mode and or failing." Where is this in the Rotax maintenance manual? What do you disassemble? How do you examine the condition of the rod and main bearings, the cam, and the lifter surfaces? Again, all I see are generalities. I repeat, I have never heard of any specific change in maintenance or operation as a result of any particular oil analysis result. Finally, I truly wish I could "keep an eye on the eternal workings" of my engine! I would be a happy camper!
Jim Meade Posted August 27, 2013 Report Posted August 27, 2013 I see where Rotax stood by what was 1-2 instances per year of an engine with defective valve parts. I didn't see that oil analysis was a key to their decision. Rotax wanted to see that regular service had been performed. The discussions I've heard about Rotax support are such that I expect that if I have to have major engine work done, I will just figure on buying a new engine. I bet I can part the engine out for as much as Rotax will give me. Is this instance typical of your experience with Rotax? I can promise you I can name very experienced Rotax mechanics who do not share your experience if you say the item you cited is the norm. A mechanic can always recommend an oil analysis; after all, it's only $20, just as your nurse can recommend one more test even if it's not strictly speaking needed or even useful. My point is that we should see an oil analysis for what it is; a trend indicator that will have no affect on how we operate the engine and the only effect it may have on how we maintain the engine is in leading us to perhaps inspect things we otherwise would not have. Rotax doesn't have us pull the gear reduction system early or change oil more often or use any additives based on anything we find out in an oil analysis test. I think it's a $20 feel good item with very little practical value. If it makes you happy, do it.
Tom Baker Posted August 27, 2013 Report Posted August 27, 2013 I know of a shop that used an oil analysis to talk the owner into pulling the cylinders to check them out. The analysis showed high carbon content consistant with cylinder wear. The compressions were good and no metal in the filter or screen. This was not on a Rotax engine, and I think shops doing business like this is not a good thing.
FredG Posted August 27, 2013 Report Posted August 27, 2013 Roger, I will ask again. Whose engine was described in the "engine lottery" link? What is the email address of Rotax (also mentioned in the "engine lottery" link) to ask for such assistance? Yes, I know about the SIR, that was not the question.
FredG Posted August 28, 2013 Report Posted August 28, 2013 Roger, I see once again we are not communicating. Oh well. I have asked a couple of direct question several times. I get answers to everything except my questions. I can only speculate that you do not want to answer my questions. So be it.
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