First oil change behind me!

[Jim Meade]

I have very limited experience with Rotax out-of-warranty support but certainly didn't get any indication that they would be as generous as Roger says for even failures that can be directly related to their product design. I'd like to see something more definitive than online forum chatter to support the idea that Rotax would care if an 800 hour engine had bad bearings.

 

If one does an online search for oil analysis, one finds discussion, including a couple of good ones in AvWeb that don't indicate any operation or routine maintenance adjustments or deviations based on oil analysis. I'll grant that one may change oil more frequently to track the trends. Oil analysis is done using a spectrum analyzer. As Roger said, if you know the composition of various components you may hazard a guess as to what is showing a high wear rate. They may lead you to conclude that certain bearings, cam facings or other components are showing more wear than normal. But, not one article said that you operate or essentially maintain the engine any differently just because you suddenly have some indication that it is wearing abnormally.

 

[Roger Lee]

Hi Fred,

"Roger, what did you do differently as a result of oil analysis? I don't see that in your reply. What major meltdown was found by oil analysis and only oil analysis? "

 

I would do nothing different unless I was the unlucky one to see a nasty trend. It is just an alert. If the trend is very minor it becomes just a watch item. If it was a major spike in a certain area and off the charts then another analysis would be in order to make sure you didn't contaminate the first one and if it is still off the charts then you may need some dis-assemblely to examine why this area seems to be in excessive wear mode and or failing. If you have a major meltdown it's way too late. An oil analysis is just one tool just like doing a slipper clutch test. it is only one tool that needs to be combined with all the tools, traces and trends to point the way to an impending major issue or find it while it's a minor one. As Jim points out it is just, but one tool of the many at your disposal to keep an eye on the eternal workings of your engine which you can not otherwise see or check without tearing it down. Hopefully you will never see anything, but if you rely on just hopefully then you might as well not do an annual because you hopefully won't find any thing external either. If you get to a major melt down then you have had an acute failure which maybe nothing could have foreseen or you see a trend in excessive bearing wear, seal wear, camshaft wear, ring wear, wrist pins starting to wear or any other moving parts within the engine.

It does happen, but thankfully it is more rare than common. Kind of like why do a compression test. Just like a compression test, it really only shows that valves are sealing and rings are sealing, but not other wear to these parts and their components. It typically doesn't show valve guide wear or pitting from water contacting the lead in 100LL forming acid on the backs of valves and other parts. It's just one tool in the many to help maintain your engine and to hopefully get an alert that something isn't normal within the engine before it fully grenades in flight. It isn't a catch all, but it is better than being like the ostrich putting their head in the sand and pretending nothing is there or ever could be there or worse yet, not even knowing this tool is out there.

Once a year for $20 shouldn't hurt anyone.

 

It's just one tool to help you since you can't see inside.

 

 

 

Jim,

 

Here is an example of where Rotax helped this guy out and they do it all over the world. They do out of warranty help many times if the part or engine prematurely fails even when out of warranty by years. They usually give at least 50% off the very expensive part which may be an entire engine like the example in this article. You can forget the help if you have really poor documentation and records because too many times too many cause their own engine demise due to lack of maint. or wrong after market parts. I heard Rotax approved this guy for help within 48 hrs. mainly because of his good paperwork.

 

 

Read about 1/2 to 2/3 down the article to see how Rotax helped.

http://ctflier.com/i...engine-lottery/

[FredG]

This is one example. Whose engine was this? Anyone special? What is the email address of Rotax to ask for such assistance?

[FredG]

Roger, you say "if it is still off the charts then you may need some dis-assemblely to examine why this area seems to be in excessive wear mode and or failing." Where is this in the Rotax maintenance manual? What do you disassemble? How do you examine the condition of the rod and main bearings, the cam, and the lifter surfaces?

 

Again, all I see are generalities. I repeat, I have never heard of any specific change in maintenance or operation as a result of any particular oil analysis result.

 

Finally, I truly wish I could "keep an eye on the eternal workings" of my engine! I would be a happy camper!

[Jim Meade]

I see where Rotax stood by what was 1-2 instances per year of an engine with defective valve parts. I didn't see that oil analysis was a key to their decision. Rotax wanted to see that regular service had been performed.

 

The discussions I've heard about Rotax support are such that I expect that if I have to have major engine work done, I will just figure on buying a new engine. I bet I can part the engine out for as much as Rotax will give me.

 

Is this instance typical of your experience with Rotax? I can promise you I can name very experienced Rotax mechanics who do not share your experience if you say the item you cited is the norm.

 

A mechanic can always recommend an oil analysis; after all, it's only $20, just as your nurse can recommend one more test even if it's not strictly speaking needed or even useful.

 

My point is that we should see an oil analysis for what it is; a trend indicator that will have no affect on how we operate the engine and the only effect it may have on how we maintain the engine is in leading us to perhaps inspect things we otherwise would not have.

 

Rotax doesn't have us pull the gear reduction system early or change oil more often or use any additives based on anything we find out in an oil analysis test.

 

I think it's a $20 feel good item with very little practical value. If it makes you happy, do it.

[Tom Baker]

I know of a shop that used an oil analysis to talk the owner into pulling the cylinders to check them out. The analysis showed high carbon content consistant with cylinder wear. The compressions were good and no metal in the filter or screen. This was not on a Rotax engine, and I think shops doing business like this is not a good thing.

[Roger Lee]

If you guys go to the Rotax Heavy Maint. class you will get some of this info. Rotax considers Heavy maint. which is dis-assembly of parts not within the owners experience level. Knowing what I know I would never attempt to dis-assemble or remove certain components on a Rotax 912 without this class or let anyone do it to my engine. When you get to this level it becomes very specialized.

 

 

If you learn about your engine and read the Rotax material on the web on their site it tells you to fill out the SIR report, how to do it and who to turn it in to. Then you need to follow up.

Not every thing gets covered and mechanics that don't share good experiences may be the same people that don't fill out the right paperwork, send it to the right people or have kept poor records. If you go to a Rotax school you learn all of this. And yes not all things will be covered. It is a case by case basis, but if your lack or doing anything or addition of the wrong thing is found out your done. It's always much cheaper in the long run just to do the right thing. Not doing things seem to always have a way of haunting us later.

 

So the people who chant you can't make me go to Rotax scholl do so at their own peril and at their customers expense.

 

" Sorry Jim this is wrong,

"Rotax doesn't have us pull the gear reduction system early or change oil more often or use any additives based on anything we find out in an oil analysis test."

If you furthered your Rotax education there are indicators in the analysis that would lead to early gearbox removal and if other areas are way too high with a possible eminent major problem the oil analysis people will not only personally call you, but will have you re-sample.

 

 

Quote:

"A mechanic can always recommend an oil analysis; after all, it's only $20, just as your nurse can recommend one more test even if it's not strictly speaking needed or even useful. "

Very true, but you better be smarter than the nurse to make an informed decision or like being your own lawyer it may bite you in the butt.

 

 

Quote:

"My point is that we should see an oil analysis for what it is; a trend indicator that will have no affect on how we operate the engine and the only effect it may have on how we maintain the engine is in leading us to perhaps inspect things we otherwise would not have."

You are exactly right 90% of the time. It is a trend indicator, but without it you have no trend to base an informed decision or you become the ostrich with his head in the sand. If I don't see it it can't happen. Then there is that 10% that shows things wearing way beyond normal limits and it should tell you that continued operation may cause a partial or complete failure and at the very least an expensive repair.

 

So you guys are right, you don't have to do an oil analysis, they can't make you.

 

 

By the way on that engine that got replaced in the article the oil analysis was one of the reason they stepped up to the plate. It should it was well cared for with the other documentation, but more importantly it should it was an acute and sudden failure that was not some thing in the making that might have been addressed earlier. I was involved in the whole process and got to see the engine and the paperwork trail was the absolute deciding factor.

But your right they can't make you document well, but they can deny you any help for lack of which they do to many with garbage for paperwork. It may be legal paperwork, but still garbage.

 

 

The way I see things in my life:

If you don't want to be an expert in a certain field then you should relay on those that are. I rely on others all the time, I just choose my expert, but I do listen and smart enough to know what I don't know and not afraid to admit it.

[FredG]

Roger, I will ask again. Whose engine was described in the "engine lottery" link? What is the email address of Rotax (also mentioned in the "engine lottery" link) to ask for such assistance? Yes, I know about the SIR, that was not the question.

[Roger Lee]

The Rotax Flying Club handles all warranty for Rotax. Your SIR must go through your distributor which sometimes slows things depending on who that is. (Unfortunately) They might add some comments then it gets sent to the Rotax Flying Club in Canada. You can not nor will they accept a direct admission. As far as the engine person that becomes their own thing to step forward if they choose. I can tell you that many people have received help from Rotax for pre-mature failures on parts. They call it their "Good Faith " help. I have seen them do this quite a few times. failure to do the required 25 hr. inspection will negate your warranty and lack of that and poor documentation will hinder you severely and many just get turned down. Most of the time instead of paying full retail for all the parts you only pay 50% for things out of warranty and if it's within the warranty period it is 100%. People or mechanics would know all this if they attended Rotax school.

 

Here is the website:

http://www.rotaxflyingclub.com/

 

The dog blog about good documentation is everything is so true, it's just getting people to believe it before it's too late.

[FredG]

Roger, I see once again we are not communicating. Oh well. I have asked a couple of direct question several times. I get answers to everything except my questions. I can only speculate that you do not want to answer my questions. So be it.

[Roger Lee]

Sorry Fred, thought I did.

I can't help you on the owner identity and I gave you the Rotax Flying Clubs address. That's who does all Rotax's warranty approvals.

[Jim Meade]

There is nothing in the heavy maintenance manual to tell one to do an oil analysis. Nor is there anything in it that gives wear limits or other indicators that one can evaluate with an oil analysis. If I'm missing something, be kind enough to give me the reference.

 

Can you provide some data to support your assertion " that 10% that shows things wearing way beyond normal limits "? I simply don't believe that 10% of oil analysis show out of normal wear. I've done them and been associated with oil analysis in a number of engines and industries and that number is way too high in my experience.

 

If an oil analysis would yield information that would let you extend your oil change interval, defer a normal gear box inspection or run past TBO, it would obviously pay off. But Rotax does not permit any of those things. There is a very small chance that an oil analysis will yield information that one will not find in normal Rotax and FD maintenance program, but even so, it has been pointed out that it does not affect operation and there is no call for specific maintenance.

 

It is incomprehensible that any organization would closely hold information needed by the average owner to make intelligent maintenance decisions. Based on my experience at the service and line maintenance courses, I did not learn a single thing that was not in Rotax manuals. We got to apply valuable hands on training, we learned a few handy procedural tips and cautions and the instructor could verify that we were able to perform what we were being taught but nothing in addition to or instead of what Rotax published. Therefore, I do not believe there is any secret information in the heavy maintenance course beyond what is in the manual and updates.

 

One of the downfalls of Rotax is their lack of openness. We are not allowed to communicate on our own behalf with the parent company. We are required to send requests through an organization in Canada that will not reveal the names of it's officers. This results in a few people claiming to know privileged information which the user finds hard to verify or challenge. This culture will inevitably damage Rotax in the long run.

 

In a well-designed maintenance program oil analysis can play a useful part. As Rotax prescribes maintenance, an oil analysis is quite similar to the medical screening pushed by AOPA, Farm Bureau and other organizations. The screening financially benefits the recommender but seldom the user and can actually provide results that are misleadng. If Rotax would publish oil analysis recommendations I'd be eager to learn and apply them.

 

 

[Doug G.]

Roger, no one who has not regularly worked on Rotax for at least two years is allowed to take the heavy maintenance class. So I, for one, will not be able to get the inside info you are referring to.

Mike Busch and Brian Carpenter say oil analysis is a waste of money. I haven't heard you provide anything that would make me see it any differently.

[Doug G.]

On the other hand, I will be taking the line maintenance class next month so I should be able to ask then.

[Roger Lee]

Your info is in the SB's and no one is going to force you to do What you dont want. The info is out there and I tried to help so you don't have to read all through the manuals and all the SB's or sit in every class. The manuals don't keep up with the SB's, SI's or SA's so you have to go back and read them all. You can maintain your Rotax any way you want, but if it isn't what they (Rotax) want and you need help and you listened to someone who has no standing with Rotax you're could be left in the cold. I get to hear a lot of inside stories so I try to use these without betraying any confidences to help others.

 

 

If you're happy the way your Rotax is maintained then there is no reason to change. Chevy's and Ford's, but there are things you may not know that could cause you grief later. I'm just trying to help so use it if you want. I get lots of calls from owners that complain that their mechanic did the wrong thing or gave them bad advise and now they have to pay. Without taking away from these two, Brian and Mike, you know lots of other authority figures too, do you believe them all or has any authority figure ever been wrong? Rainbow and Rotax have not quite seen eye to eye.

Congress and the president are the authorities we put in political office and they are supposed to be experts. Do you believe all of them?

 

I don't think there is anything else that I can add to the oil analysis post that will add to it's relavent information.

 

 

Andy,

I hope you don't post when you do your first set of plugs. LOL

[Doug G.]

From what I can see of the analyses you posted I would say, "Yup, I have been using my engine and when I do it wears a little bit." What action do those reports recommend to you other than take another analysis next time?

I accept you as an authority Roger, but that does not mean you are always correct, does it? Maybe if you would answer the question - have you ever performed any maintenance based on oil analysis alone, and if so, what? The answer to that question would help me understand why I should accept your authority over the others in this particular instance. Please, just what you actually do/have done. The simpler the better.

If you are not willing to answer that straight forward I guess we have reached the end of the conversation on this issue.

[FredG]

Roger, in the "Dog Blog" to which you referred users of this forum, the anonymous, lottery-winning engine owner wrote:

 

"I have preached about good detailed paperwork and documentation and here is where it paid off. I sent Rotax an email and then filled out a Rotax CSIR (Customer Service Information Report) and I had to send them a copy of my entire engine logbook. Because of all the detailed documentation since the aircraft was new, i.e.. on time scheduled maint complied with, oil analysis, all SB’s documented and complied with, hose change, oil changes on time, ect… Rotax stepped up and offered to replace the engine within about 48 hrs."

 

Now you say you can't help me with the identity of the author who had this extraordinary response from Rotax. Nor do you have the email address mentioned in the Dog Blog.

 

How do I get that kind of service from Rotax? When my 700 hour 912 engine crankcase failed two months ago (a known failure of early 912 crankcases, I am told), I had no email address to write to. (Yes, the mechanic who maintains my engine has completed all Rotax service and maintenance classes.) I wanted to talk to Rotax so that I could decide whether to buy a new engine or rebuild the old one. Guess what, there was no one to talk to. I was told, by one of the three US Rotax overhaul centers, that I would have to have the repairs made (entirely at my own expense) and then send the info to Rotax and wait for a response. Was I told wrong?

 

I guess I'm not as "lucky" as the anonymous engine lottery winner. Or I'm not as important to Rotax sales in the US as he or she is. Who knows?

[GlennM]

The only benefit I can see for an oil analysis on our engines is to fine tune your oil change interval based on the oil brand you use and how you use the engine. If your analysis includes the TBN (Total Base Number), you can modify your oil change time to maintain the pH of the oil in the basic range. You don't want the oil to turn acidic, which does not help the life of the engine. It is a fairly moot point since Rotax clearly defines the oil change intervals with each type of fuel and the oils it recommends. So they did the testing for us! I hope...

[sandpiper]

Glenn - I would disagree about "The only benefit....." It should be able to warn about a coming major failure, or a trend towards a problem. Personally, I wouldn't use it to extend my change interval. That, to me, would only be a benefit to major fleets. Just my opinion based on nothing.

 

Having said that, I don't do oil analysis - but probably should.

[Roger Lee]

Hi Doug,

 

As I tell my wife, I admit I'm not always right. I was wrong once last year.

Just joking. Your right I'm not always right I'm human like the rest of us, but we all have our subjects we tend to do better at than others. Oil analysis to determine our oil change interval would just be a waist of time. We easily change oil way before the oil ever breaks down. We drain at 25 hrs with 100LL to get rid of the lead the oil is fine. 50 hrs. with 91 oct. is before the oil's time and even a 100+ hrs., but we try to keep our engines at peak to not only live to TBO, but there and beyond.

 

The city of Tucson's fire department tried to do oil changes only with an oil analysis and found it to be more costly in the long run so they went back to just a mileage based change.

 

I have not had to work on a single Rotax engine based solely based on an oil analysis it is is , but a single tool to look at. The Rotax engine is not an age old design air cooled engine like some. Think of it as a motorcycle engine compared to the other air cooled aircraft engines and you'll understand why it last so much longer without the same problems.

 

Now, can a Rotax engine break down or fail. Absolutely. It was built by people just like us. Parts can fail from poor metallurgy, dryness, poor assembly and owner based maint., ect...

 

 

So will the world stop if you don't do an analysis or will the engine fail. No

Is it a better way to do things (Best Practice) and to have better documentation in the event something does happen and for the possibility of a preventive warning. Yes.

There is too much poor documentation out there as it is why add to it.

 

Not a single person here on this forum or any other needs to follow a single piece of my advise and is certainly free to do whatever they want. There are experts in all fields that disagree. Just ask any 10 doctors or politicians. Pick your expert and go with them. It's always been a buyer beware type scenario. I have heard through the grape vine that the Dog writes the tech articles for ROAN. They seem to show up in the same place at times.

[FastEddieB]

As a point of information...

 

....it never even occurred to me that regular oil analysis was anything but a good thing.

 

I think of it like a routine blood test - unlikely you'll get any benefit from it, but if even one time it catches something early, it will have been worth it.

 

In a conventional engine, high bronze can point to a bearing's premature wear - and if I was flying over some of the terrain posted in videos here recently, I would sure want to know if any parameters were trending in the wrong direction. Our bearings are not bronze in the ROTAX, but I'd still like to track other items for unusual wear.

 

But that's just me - and I have no real data at hand to prove oil analysis' benefit - I just always assumed it.

[Doug G.]

One could also assume that you could get better information from analysis with an electron microscope, but if it isn't going to change what I do why spend the money. Even if it is only $20 each time. If I were to do it, I would look at it and say, "That's interesting." and that would be it.

Roger, best practice does not mean doing everything you possibly can. That is one of the reasons health care has gotten so expensive - defensive medical testing, just in case.

[FredG]

Roger, how is it that you know that the Dog Bog author also writes for ROAN and yet you are unable to identify the engine owner who got such good customer service from Rotax? I will ask again, how do ordinary Rotax engine owners who have catastrophic failures of their well maintained 912s get a new engine in 48 hours? Who do they email? After all, that what the blog says. Or is that treatment just for special owners? Really, if you ask us to read the blog, tell us if it applies to everyone or only to a few.

[FredG]

Eddie, the goal is to do blood tests that lead to a change in care or treatment. Routine blood tests that don't change medical care (in light of all other information) are not recommended and are not done by good doctors. Otherwise, doctors would do every test available on everyone all the time.

[Roger Lee]

I didn't say I knew who the Dog Blog guy was just that I heard through the grapevine he wrote the tech articles.