Scrapman1959 Posted September 16, 2013 Report Share Posted September 16, 2013 Not sure if the SW's are suppose to be the same as the LS's. but checking my manual on a 2011 LS the flaps and ailerons should match perfectly at -6 cruise setting. Wondering if a few of you guys in the know could confirm I'm interpreting that text correctly in the manual? My ailerons are hanging lower than my flaps in the -6 position. This probably causes extra drag and even a small vortex drag by having the uneven air flow where the flaps/ aileron joint is located. Interestingly, the manual states they should align at -12 also assuming you are in a country that allows a -12 flap setting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CT2kflyer Posted September 16, 2013 Report Share Posted September 16, 2013 I have at CT2k and my flaps and ailerons align perfectly at -12 degrees....... Just saying....... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger Lee Posted September 16, 2013 Report Share Posted September 16, 2013 At -6 they should be the same. Are they equal on both sides? At zero the aileron should be a tad higher. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
N89WD Posted September 22, 2013 Report Share Posted September 22, 2013 Roger, when measuring flap degree should you push up on the flap slightly? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger Lee Posted September 22, 2013 Report Share Posted September 22, 2013 Just let them sit in their natural position. I have seen some that are very solid in their position and some with a tiny bit of play. It doesn't seem to bother anything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sammell Clara Posted October 16, 2013 Report Share Posted October 16, 2013 Sounds like a little wing warp or surface warp. All my plane's have a small amount of this too. H-9 P-51 60 scale is one of them. I think it has to do with many thing's. Wing warp, flap / aileron warp, the position and centering placement of the hinge' (RC Hélicoptère), heat or cold stretching the coating and causeing warp. I set the outside or wing tip surface's as flush as possible and work toward the fuse. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anticept Posted October 16, 2013 Report Share Posted October 16, 2013 Roger Lee: i know that CTLS have -12 settings over in europe, so they hang slightly lower than the ailerons (neuters the speed tofitt he 120 kt sp pilot limit). Are CTSW not the same? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger Lee Posted October 16, 2013 Report Share Posted October 16, 2013 The flaps here are -6 by the regs, but I know of a few CTSW's at -12. Really isn't a big difference since we don't have in flight adjustable props to go along with it. Depending on how you have your prop setup and engine dialed in and gross weight in the plane most us us top out around 115 knots and some around 120 knots . Mine will hit 120, but that's not at my normal cruise rpm of 5100-5200 rpm. Those of you that want to go from -6 to -12 save yourself the bother, it isn't worth it without adding the adjustable prop. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anticept Posted October 16, 2013 Report Share Posted October 16, 2013 The flaps here are -6 by the regs, but I know of a few CTSW's at -12. Really isn't a big difference since we don't have in flight adjustable props to go along with it. Depending on how you have your prop setup and engine dialed in and gross weight in the plane most us us top out around 115 knots and some around 120 knots . Mine will hit 120, but that's not at my normal cruise rpm of 5100-5200 rpm. Those of you that want to go from -6 to -12 save yourself the bother, it isn't worth it without adding the adjustable prop. They also neuter the blade angles on US aircraft, even for fixed pitch. The European models have different prop angle recommendations. I've also seen it in practice because the mechanic I use adjusted the prop a little too much, and my CT was able to go 126 kts before topping out. It was like this for over a year, but I had some vibration issues cropping up (a blade creeped a little). When he inspected them, he said the blades were a degree and a half out of spec, and ever since he fixed the prop again, I can get about 118. We also reprogrammed the flaps (board went bad), and I think previously they were programmed too low; if you set -6, you would get about 121-122, but if you set manual up, it would hit that 126. But when you looked at the flaps, the difference between -6 and manual up wasn't much different from -6 to 0... Also, what do you mean limited by regs? The only reg that I know of which would limit this would be the speed limit, so neutering the flap settings would be a very simple cheat to do it on a naturally fast airplane. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger Lee Posted October 17, 2013 Report Share Posted October 17, 2013 In the US you can't have an in flight adjustable prop in LSA. Technically we can't change the flap settings without an LOA from FD. If the flap board went out you're supposed to reset the new flap board settings as per factory. We can however change the prop pitch and the best place I have found for the CT's in the US is right at 5600-5650 for your average cruise altitude which can be different for different people. Then there are people with special needs like float fliers. Flap settings at -6 had more to do with the max stall of 45 knots than it did top speed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anticept Posted October 17, 2013 Report Share Posted October 17, 2013 In the US you can't have an in flight adjustable prop in LSA. Technically we can't change the flap settings without an LOA from FD. If the flap board went out you're supposed to reset the new flap board settings as per factory. We can however change the prop pitch and the best place I have found for the CT's in the US is right at 5600-5650 for your average cruise altitude which can be different for different people. Then there are people with special needs like float fliers. Flap settings at -6 had more to do with the max stall of 45 knots than it did top speed. I know we can't have an in-flight adjustable (14 CFR 1.1 definition for light sport). Also, the original flap board came like that. When we reprogrammed it, we noticed there was a LOT smaller difference between -6 and manual up, which ended up meaning the airspeed differences were smaller. As for the setting on the engine: I think the pitch was set slightly too high, I remember barely being able to get over 5500 at top speed, whereas now I can just touch that 5700. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed Cesnalis Posted October 17, 2013 Report Share Posted October 17, 2013 Actually they are not ailerons but flaperons and they move diferentially from stick input as well as droop with higher flap settings. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Posted October 17, 2013 Report Share Posted October 17, 2013 The ctsw ailerons move down with the flaps so would make them flaperons Actually, the CT has ailerons, not flaperons. flaperons are a combo flap and aileron, like the Aerotrek has. The CT has seperate flaps and airlerons. . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anticept Posted October 17, 2013 Report Share Posted October 17, 2013 The -6 applies to flaps only. Ailerons are a function of your stick movement. At neutral the ailerons should be even with the wing or a little higher, not much. Trim tabs should also be even with their surfaces when the trim is set neutral. I was using the ailerons as an observation, but not for calibration of the flaps. Also, what do you mean even with the wing? Actually they are not ailerons but flaperons and they move diferentially from stick input as well as droop with higher flap settings. Varying movement in an aileron from up vs down movement is called differential. It's to correct adverse yaw in a turn. It's very common in aircraft. It doesn't make it a flaperon though. I will need to review the maintenance manual for a CTLS, but I don't think there is any connection between flaps and ailerons, so any dropping is just an illusion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed Cesnalis Posted October 17, 2013 Report Share Posted October 17, 2013 I was using the ailerons as an observation, but not for calibration of the flaps. Varying movement in an aileron from up vs down movement is called differential. It's to correct adverse yaw in a turn. It's very common in aircraft. It doesn't make it a flaperon though. I will need to review the maintenance manual for a CTLS, but I don't think there is any connection between flaps and ailerons, so any dropping is just an illusion. It is no illusion they are flapersons It is easy enough to watch, have somone deploy flaps and flaperon while you watch the linkage in the luggage area. You can see both surfaces, flaps and flaperons are connected via linkage and droop together. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Runtoeat Posted October 17, 2013 Report Share Posted October 17, 2013 Scrapman, when I received my plane (used) my ailerons were rigged so that both were approximately 3/8" high to -6 flaperons (yes, all CT's have FLAPERONS, the ailerons drop incrementally as flaps are incrementally engaged). I've found that re-rigging my aileron alignment so that they are even with flaps @ -6 improved my air speed, and also took away the tendency to always want to turn! Since setting the flaps to -6 degrees results in an optimized position for airflow, it seems logical that aligning the ailerons with the -6 flaps would achieve optimized airflow for these too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anticept Posted October 17, 2013 Report Share Posted October 17, 2013 It is no illusion they are flapersons It is easy enough to watch, have somone deploy flaps and flaperon while you watch the linkage in the luggage area. You can see both surfaces, flaps and flaperons are connected via linkage and droop together. I checked the CTLS maintenance manual. On older models of aircraft, they were interconnected and had a droop system (MM page 4-44). On newer models, this might have changed. One of my service center documents talks about distinguishing the old and newer flap control machines. I suspect around 2010 this likely changed, since that is when a LOT of design changes happened with CTs. I will inquire about this. Also, 4-45 says the ailerons and flaps must line up when set to -6. I'll have to make adjustments to my CT since this isn't the case with mine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Baker Posted October 17, 2013 Report Share Posted October 17, 2013 I checked the CTLS maintenance manual. On older models of aircraft, they were interconnected and had a droop system (MM page 4-44). On newer models, this might have changed. One of my service center documents talks about distinguishing the old and newer flap control machines. I suspect around 2010 this likely changed, since that is when a LOT of design changes happened with CTs. I will inquire about this. Also, 4-45 says the ailerons and flaps must line up when set to -6. I'll have to make adjustments to my CT since this isn't the case with mine. There was a control system change in the middle of 2008. The first 35-40 CTLS's had really heavy aileron control stick pressure. It was changed to back to lighter like the CTSW. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Baker Posted October 17, 2013 Report Share Posted October 17, 2013 I don't know if the CTLSi has changed flaps and aileron design, but I do know that some here in the states wanted the flapperon feature removed from the design. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anticept Posted October 17, 2013 Report Share Posted October 17, 2013 I don't know if the CTLSi has changed flaps and aileron design, but I do know that some here in the states wanted the flapperon feature removed from the design. I was given the manufacturing assembly and installation drawings. Confirming that all CTs use flaperons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed Cesnalis Posted October 17, 2013 Report Share Posted October 17, 2013 Actually, the CT has ailerons, not flaperons. flaperons are a combo flap and aileron, like the Aerotrek has. The CT has seperate flaps and airlerons. . You keep correcting me with erroneous information. If you are going to call me wrong, why not check 1st? All CTs use flaperons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anticept Posted October 17, 2013 Report Share Posted October 17, 2013 You keep correcting me with erroneous information. If you are going to call me wrong, why not check 1st? All CTs use flaperons. Chiiilll CharlieTango and CTLSi. We're all just trying to get to the bottom of this . CharlieTango is correct though, they are indeed flaperons. The assembly and installation drawings shows a linkage at the top of the flap motor extension shaft that the aileron controls are bolted to, and the further the flaps move, the more the aileron droop is affected. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anticept Posted October 17, 2013 Report Share Posted October 17, 2013 That was directed at CTLSi not you Anticept. How many times do I need a student to tell me I'm wrong when he doesn't know what he is talking about? You did tell me it was an illusion and now you tell me to chill, upon the chill comment I think you should check 1st too. (I cant seem to word this below in a way that shows the respect that I am trying to convey) I understand, and I did suggest it was an illusion. I also tried to be disarming and stated I am not sure, and stated I will ask FD for the drawings to research. You were correct, and I therefore stated it. I'm just asking if you could ease up a little... I am trying to be diplomatic and hoping a massive argument doesn't start. I mean no disrespect to you or to CTLSi, i am just asking if we can avoid jumping all over each other and/or just ignore those that don't want to listen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed Cesnalis Posted October 17, 2013 Report Share Posted October 17, 2013 I deleted my post but you captured it in your quote. I admit to being frustrated. It feels like 100 of my posts were corrected and many accusations made regarding me crashing ct's and such because this one guy became expert on everything before he had a clue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FlyingMonkey Posted October 17, 2013 Report Share Posted October 17, 2013 What is the purpose of the flaperons? We know they reduce roll effectiveness at higher flap settings, so there must be an advantage to make that a worthwhile trade off. Do they increase the effectiveness of the flaps by giving some additional "virtual" flap area? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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