Aileron to flap alignment

[Ed Cesnalis]

45kt stall limit is the reason the LSA version is limited to -6, -12 won't qualify.

[Roger Lee]

LSA must not stall over 45 knots at max weight and in our case -6 or it's out of the LSA category.

Seems to me that's an oops that needs correction.

[Doug G.]

Looking at it again, it does say it is IAS.

[Jim Meade]

(4) A maximum stalling speed or minimum steady flight speed without the use of lift-enhancing devices (VS1 ) of not more than 45 knots CAS at the aircraft's maximum certificated takeoff weight and most critical center of gravity.

[FlyingMonkey]

CAS in the regs vs IAS in the POH, so the manual might be correct. It's definitely right near the edge though.

[Anticept]

Hi everyone!

 

I had to recalibrate my AoA sensor on my EFIS 100 a couple days ago. Per the manual, one of the calibration procedures is a full powered on, full flap stall. I have a few things to report from the experience.

 

First off, holy crap will a CTLS spin with power on, full flaps stall. It was very difficult to keep the ball centered and needed constant aileron adjustment as the plane kept trying to roll left. This meant I had to use more and more right stick, and in turn, more and more right rudder, to try and counter the increasing yawing. When it finally gave, my aileron effectiveness went to nil, left wing dropped hard, and nose pulled left towards the ground, starting a spin, with the power pulling it tight. Immediate full right rudder, power off, and centered controls. The plane came out in half a rotation, but i did not expect her to spin so suddenly, she hung on the edge of the envelope for a good few seconds before giving up.

 

Full flaps, no power, is much gentler. Still potential to spin, but much more manageable and you can tell it is developing.

 

One of the things I noticed during the full power full flaps stall, is that even though the ball showed centered, it didn't feel centered. I am going to do it again, but hang a string in the cockpit to see if the ball is reading correctly.

 

I wish she was spin certified though! That was FUN!

[Doug G.]

I have done these and never had had that issue. I had never come out of the stall anything other than straight ahead. Usually it is more of a mush.

[Anticept]

I have done these and never had had that issue. I had never come out of the stall anything other than straight ahead. Usually it is more of a mush.

 

Why were you doing a power on full flaps stall?

 

Anyways, as said, I am going to check that the ball is centering correctly.

[Doug G.]

I practice a lot. Ground ref, stalls, slow flight, different configs, touch and go. If I don't have a destination and decide to fly that is what I am usually doing.

[opticsguy]

At -6 flaps, my ailerons are about half an inch high. I've seen a CT from the same year have the ailerons a bit low.

[Ed Cesnalis]

...First off, holy crap will a CTLS spin with power on, full flaps stall. It was very difficult to keep the ball centered and needed constant aileron adjustment as the plane kept trying to roll left. This meant I had to use more and more right stick, and in turn, more and more right rudder, to try and counter the increasing yawing. When it finally gave...

 

I'm mostly a self taught pilot from the part 103 world but with some experience maneuvering including spins.

 

In the same situation I would rely on rudder 1st as opposed to flaperons for a couple of reasons.

• As you noted eventually the flaperons become ineffective
  
• if your corrections are with rudder then you can't spin.
  

Think falling leaf maneuver.

 

It is fun to get the CTSW into usual attitudes it behaves nicely but it has been pointed out that there is no legal way to do so.

[Anticept]

CT:

 

It is my belief that the rudder would have moved the ball too far to the left and guaranteed a spin. The whole time leading up to the stall, it kept trying to roll left, ball centered or not. The aileron movement was to correct the left rolling tendency, and I had to continue adding right rudder to account for the additional drag to keep the ball centered.

 

I'm thinking that due to the nose high attitude, slow speed and high power, P-factor overtook the balancing forces once the stall began and is what lead to the left roll and sharp left yaw.

 

Feel free to chime in, I'm up for hearing other ideas about it!

[Ed Cesnalis]

You seem to be doing skidded turn stalls and correcting with aileron which is aggravating initiating a snap roll. What if you cover your ball up and use a road for alignment. Use rudder inputs and keep the nose on the road. You should be able to do the stall without the spin.

• If your use the rudder to prevent the spin it can't aggravate the spin.
  
• You can't realize a sharp left yaw if you are keeping the ball centered
  

I understand that you are using aileron to counter roll but can't you counter it more successfully with rudder? If you do it can't spin.

 

 

Employ one of the lessons from Wayne Hadley. The falling leaf manuever that prevents rotation tells us that left rudder as the right wing drops prevents the rotation, prevents the spin, prevents the flat spin.

 

There are good lessons in this video that I use in my everyday flying.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xwrfEsCiltc&feature=youtu.be

[Anticept]

It is an experiment that i can certainly try. I was going to do that anyways if the ball proved to be correct after all. It was all very weird

[Tom Baker]

By adding right aileron you kept increasing drag on the left side. I think this aggrivated the problem instead of helping.

[Anticept]

By adding right aileron you kept increasing drag on the left side. I think this aggrivated the problem instead of helping.

 

Yes it did, but it was countered by right rudder. I think the extreme p-factor is what caused the spin despite the centered ball, because it doesn't do that with power off.

[sandpiper]

In my CTSW I have done full power stalls in all flap settings. I've never had a problem so long as I was coordinated and used rudder as primary recovery control. Using aileron should aggravate the recovery.

 

Where I have had it try to enter a spin is in a skidding turn. For example, try a 15 degree banked turn, ball about 1 ball width out of the cage in a skid, about 3000 RPM, increase back pressure until it stalls. Mine will try to roll in the direction of turn since the inside wing stalls first. Normal behavior in most of the planes we fly, some worse than others.

 

I have found the CTSW to be predictable and mild in stalls but that doesn't mean it can't bite.

 

I would guess that an improperly rigged plane could produce the result you wrote about??

[Anticept]

In my CTSW I have done full power stalls in all flap settings. I've never had a problem so long as I was coordinated and used rudder as primary recovery control. Using aileron should aggravate the recovery.

 

Where I have had it try to enter a spin is in a skidding turn. For example, try a 15 degree banked turn, ball about 1 ball width out of the cage in a skid, about 3000 RPM, increase back pressure until it stalls. Mine will try to roll in the direction of turn since the inside wing stalls first. Normal behavior in most of the planes we fly, some worse than others.

 

I have found the CTSW to be predictable and mild in stalls but that doesn't mean it can't bite.

 

I would guess that an improperly rigged plane could produce the result you wrote about??

 

Perhaps there is confusion. The events i described with aileron were the events leading up to the stall, not after it. When the left wing dropped, I instinctively went ailerons neutral and hit full right rudder. The power was slightly delayed, but i got it off after a quarter of the rotation.

 

To calibrate the efis-100 aoa, one of the maneuvers is to do a stall with full flaps, full power. This means i have to get really high with the nose. I kept wings level, and as I approached the stall, the roll tendency was getting quite high. The more aileron i added, the more rudder to had to add as well, a natural consequence of the differential drag, to keep from slipping. When it finally stalled, i was probably 15-20 degrees positive pitch, ball approx centered, wings level. When i do this power off, the stalls are, as doug said, more of a mush, the nose drops forward into recovery,

 

I do believe the massive difference in the thrust, generated by the descending blade caused while in the stall, pulled the plane left, and my left wing stalled harder, dropped out, and further aggravated after the fact by my momentary left aileron down.

 

Again though, I only did this once. It was at night, and the surprise left me slightly unsettled. I wanted to do it again! However, i did not feel it was appropriate to do this at night on purpose.

 

I do want to figure out why it happened, and I would like to reserve final conclusions until I have further experimented with it.

[Ed Cesnalis]

I don't think there is confusion, when your wing dropped rudder was the correction not aileron, you made it worse. It sure sounds as though your ball is out and added to that your input is wrong. Watch the video above from the 6:45 mark till 11:30. See how your scenario matches the skidded stall, its perfectly predictable. Early in the video Wayne asks if you can instinctively tell which way the plane will break, was it instictive for you on the skidded turn to prevent spin entry with opposite rudder? Sounds like you think aileron 1st.

[Anticept]

I don't think there is confusion, when your wing dropped rudder was the correction not aileron, you made it worse. It sure sounds as though your ball is out and added to that your input is wrong. Watch the video above from the 6:45 mark till 11:30. See how your scenario matches the skidded stall, its perfectly predictable. Early in the video Wayne asks if you can instinctively tell which way the plane will break, was it instictive for you on the skidded turn to prevent spin entry with opposite rudder? Sounds like you think aileron 1st.

 

I used to do spins a lot in a tomahawk, but never with flaps or full power. That night I kept my eye on the ball throughout the maneuver, it was roughly centered the whole time. I do not know if a CT can be recovered from a fully developed spin, which is why I watch the ball intently during a stall maneuver. From the moment i started slowing down in the pitch up, the tendency to roll kept getting stronger, it wasn't sudden. Thats why i found it so odd... In a power off stall, I need to only use the rudder, it doesn't try to roll left.

 

I don't doubt that I may have been the cause, i just find it odd that when i did the power off full flaps stall, why didn't it try to roll over on me?

 

I'll review the video a bit later.

[Ed Cesnalis]

Both wings don't stall at the same time and portions of the wing stall 1st while other portions keep flying. Your task is to stall your wings and as that process develops and a wing drops you can't count on the partially stalled wing to correct your bank. The wing's center of pressure is changing, hence the wing drop and the relative wind is beginning to separate. Right rudder to counter the left wing dropping and to maintain your heading, thus preventing rotation is better than allowing the spin to develop and only then relying on right rudder to recover.

 

Sequence is to get flying again then roll wings level cause the wings don't respond correctly until they are flying again.

[Anticept]

As said, will experiment and post results. I didn't finish my edit before you posted, buy the way

[Ed Cesnalis]

Your tomahawk is a light plane but heavy compared to light sport. You have 2 sources of energy, kinetic and from your motor. Its harder to stall the light sport with power on, kinda hangs on the prop more, or any little bit of power and it wants to keep flying. You might be experiencing some stall/spin transition to light sport.

 

All you have to do is recover the left wing drop with right rudder or even simply use enough right rudder to keep your heading and it won't spin.

[Ed Cesnalis]

This is an interesting subject, I think most of us stay out of no man's land but are curious.

[Anticept]

It is indeed interesting.

 

I was not watching my heading though. I wonder if i was turning?