Flying with a pulse - oximeter

[Ed Cesnalis]

 

 

Yeah one of those.  I usually take O2 if I plan on being above 12,000'.  Recently I bought a pulse-oximeter and learned that my O2 saturation on the ground is 95. I climbed to 12,500 and it was 95

 

 

I'll save the O2.

[Doug G.]

How long were you at 12500? And what is your home field elevation.

(I don't think either of us want everyone to think what works for you will work for everyone.)

[Ed Cesnalis]

How long were you at 12500? And what is your home field elevation.

(I don't think either of us want everyone to think what works for you will work for everyone.)

 

I was at 12,500 for 30 minutes and I have lived at 8,000' for 36 years.

 

I'm sure the oximeter works both ways, it allows me to forgo O2 with confidence and can alert others that they need it sooner than they thought.  These things are cheap, light-weight and commonly available,  they make sense.

[GravityKnight]

I have one too.. I usually run around 97% on the ground, I went up real high and saw it drop 1% .. but I wasn't up there for a real long time either... keep forgetting to check it more when I've been up high for a while (which maybe is a sign I need more oxygen haha)

[FlyingMonkey]

The problem with hypoxia is that it sneaks up on you. You might only see your O2 saturation drop 1-2%, and figure "I'm good". The problem is it will KEEP dropping and the rate of drop is not linear. Since one of the first onset symptoms is a sense of well-being and euphoria, you don't realize you are hypoxic and progress seamlessly to cognitive impairment.

 

I'd suggest if you are over 12,000ft that you either use O2 or at least check your O2 every five to ten minutes. At the very least a snort of O2 periodically will prevent the headaches and fatigue that often accompany high altitude flying.

[Ed Cesnalis]

I have a re-ocurring alert on Garmin PIlot that reminds me to check my fuel and gauges and O2 saturation. 

[Tom Baker]

Since you are talking about oxygen and Hypoxia I thought I would link to an audio file that I play to my ground school students.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_IqWal_EmBg

[FlyingMonkey]

I have a re-ocurring alert on Garmin PIlot that reminds me to check my fuel and gauges and O2 saturation. 

 

I thought I was the only Garmin Pilot user around here.  I love it.

[FastEddieB]

I had one Velcro'd to the panel of my Cirrus:

 

 

Useful when setting flow for the built-in O2.

 

As an aside, my resting O2 stats have always been on the low side, usually 93% to 94%. This was true even when I was running marathons and cycling Centuries. Never been sure why, but there you have it.

[gbigs]

You guys are solving a problem you don't have.  Unless you are smokers and live at sea level you should be able to fly for hours at 10 to 12k.  Nothing wrong with wearing the oximeter but as you will see unless your level drops to 90 and below you don't need oxygen.   And you won't see that unless you get a LOT higher, say around 14k and above which of course is not possible in the CT or any other SLSA.

 

CT living at 8k will never have a problem  because he has acclimated to an elevation most guys living at sea level will rarely fly at...same with the guy living in Colorado.

[FastEddieB]

Again, please disregard the above as uninformed, containing several factual errors.

[gbigs]

Again, please disregard the above as uninformed, containing several factual errors.

 

You are wrong again Eddie.  I own an SR22T remember?  I have been flying at altitudes up to 18k for months now...and of course did so with Cirrus factory platinum instructors with thousands of hours in turbos flying in the flight levels in non pressurized aircraft.  The Cirrus training is pretty clear on the process.  You may want to refresh your knowledge...or did you have that training since you did not fly in turbos?

 

Our flight from the Diluth factory to Reno is an example of flying without oxygen at 12,500 for NINE hours with no ill effect.  And I am 66 years old.

[Ed Cesnalis]

Living at a ski area I get to see the masses perform at altitude.  Its true that the average young guy living at sea level can climb to and perform at 14,000' and the average person from sea level can operate at 11,000' without issue but a small percentage of people cannot.  Everyone has a different limit.

 

Then there is night time.  Night time we should be using O2 in our cars above 5,000' to support the degraded night vision.  

[gbigs]

Living at a ski area I get to see the masses perform at altitude.  Its true that the average young guy living at sea level can climb to and perform at 14,000' and the average person from sea level can operate at 11,000' without issue but a small percentage of people cannot.  Everyone has a different limit.

 

Then there is night time.  Night time we should be using O2 in our cars above 5,000' to support the degraded night vision.  

 

CT.  Nothing wrong with keeping the time you are at 10k or above to a couple of hours. But since you live at 8k it's like climbing to 4k from sea level for others.  Sea level types can also fly at 10k without ill effect (unless they are smokers or have COPD or a like condition)...getting to 12k and above should be limited to a couple of hours or you may get a headache and a little slower reading the panel.  The fix is to simply drop to 8k or so.  The time over the mountains is never going to be more than half an hour anyway unless you are flying north to south over them.

[FlyingMonkey]

 

Our flight from the Diluth factory to Reno is an example of flying without oxygen at 12,500 for NINE hours with no ill effect.  And I am 66 years old.

 

Hey, screw the regulations requiring oxygen use at 12.500 or above after more than 30 minutes.  You were only 8.5 hours past that requirement, what could go wrong?!?

 

14,000ft+ requires O2 use continuously.  Do you really think there is a huge pressure difference in the 1500ft between 12,500 and 14,000?  Most of the breathable atmosphere is below you at either altitude.

 

You might have felt "no ill effect" but I guarantee you were at some level of impairment at 12,500ft for nine hours.  That is the problem with hypoxia.  You could be totally a basket case and you'd never know it and think you're doing great.    

[FlyingMonkey]

CT.  Nothing wrong with keeping the time you are at 10k or above to a couple of hours. But since you live at 8k it's like climbing to 4k from sea level for others.  Sea level types can also fly at 10k without ill effect (unless they are smokers or have COPD or a like condition)...getting to 12k and above should be limited to a couple of hours or you may get a headache and a little slower reading the panel.  The fix is to simply drop to 8k or so.  The time over the mountains is never going to be more than half an hour anyway unless you are flying north to south over them.

 

Simply not true.  The atmosphere and the human tolerance for O2 partial pressure is not linear.  The difference from 0ft to 4000ft is much less taxing on the body than from 6000ft to 10,000ft.  Why do you think the requirement for 02 goes from "after 30min" at 12,500ft to "continuous" at 14,000ft, a mere 1500ft later?  Because your tolerance to the O2 partial pressure difference is falling off a cliff at that level.

 

Acclimated people do have greater resistance to the effect at and around the altitude they live at.  But as altitude increases beyond that, acclimated people fall off FASTER, so that at some critical altitude, their performance is identical to those from lower altitudes.  Living at higher elevation doesn't magically transform one to a superhuman that is better at all altitudes than his/her lowlander counterparts.  They still have the same biology.

 

But hey, do what you want; you will anyway. 

[Tom Baker]

You guys are solving a problem you don't have.  Unless you are smokers and live at sea level you should be able to fly for hours at 10 to 12k.  Nothing wrong with wearing the oximeter but as you will see unless your level drops to 90 and below you don't need oxygen.   And you won't see that unless you get a LOT higher, say around 14k and above which of course is not possible in the CT or any other SLSA.

 

CT living at 8k will never have a problem  because he has acclimated to an elevation most guys living at sea level will rarely fly at...same with the guy living in Colorado.

 

I live at only 500 MSL, so this discussion is a good one for me.

 

Long before LSA in 1940 there was a altitude record set for a normally aspirated airplane. This airplane by todays standards would be a LSA. It flew to over 24,000 feet. To think that LSA couldn't climb to 14,000 today is ludicrous.

http://www.taylorcraft.org/grace-huntington/ghuntington-record-x.html

[FastEddieB]

You may want to refresh your knowledge...or did you have that training since you did not fly in turbos?

 

 

Again, just factually incorrect.

 

I have a large amount of time in turbos, both pressurized and unpressurized, single and twin, as PIC and instructor, over a 40 year career. I've spent far more hours at O2-required altitudes than you have altogether in your logbook.

 

This does not have to be a contest about who has more training or is more experienced, but if it were, quite simply I win.

 

But I did not bring level of experience or training into it - I just pointed out misstatements of facts. Facts are stubborn things, regardless of experience - or lack thereof.

[Ed Cesnalis]

Living at higher elevation doesn't magically transform one to a superhuman that is better at all altitudes than his/her lowlander counterparts.  They still have the same biology.

 

There is a biological change that benefits the acclimated person even at far higher  elevations.  It takes time to acclimate because it takes time to synthesize more O2 carrying red blood cells.  Once acclimated you have a higher ratio or red corpuscles and this extra capacity can be used at other altitudes.  

[FlyingMonkey]

There is a biological change that benefits the acclimated person even at far higher  elevations.  It takes time to acclimate because it takes time to synthesize more O2 carrying red blood cells.  Once acclimated you have a higher ratio or red corpuscles and this extra capacity can be used at other altitudes.  

 

I understand all that.  But I stand by my statements.  At high enough altitude there is simply not enough O2 available for those extra cells to scavenge.  

[gbigs]

Simply not true.  The atmosphere and the human tolerance for O2 partial pressure is not linear.  The difference from 0ft to 4000ft is much less taxing on the body than from 6000ft to 10,000ft.  Why do you think the requirement for 02 goes from "after 30min" at 12,500ft to "continuous" at 14,000ft, a mere 1500ft later?  Because your tolerance to the O2 partial pressure difference is falling off a cliff at that level.

 

Acclimated people do have greater resistance to the effect at and around the altitude they live at.  But as altitude increases beyond that, acclimated people fall off FASTER, so that at some critical altitude, their performance is identical to those from lower altitudes.  Living at higher elevation doesn't magically transform one to a superhuman that is better at all altitudes than his/her lowlander counterparts.  They still have the same biology.

 

But hey, do what you want; you will anyw

 

Well, I didn't start the thread but I did provide the information you would need if someday you get an aircraft that can fly at the higher altitudes.  The rule is 12,501 and 30 mins max without, then oxygen with 'cannula' for the pilot.   Frankly, as usual I don't care how you and Eddie perceive the world of aviation, but I do care those who read these comments are given good information.

[gbigs]

I understand all that.  But I stand by my statements.  At high enough altitude there is simply not enough O2 available for those extra cells to scavenge.  

 

You don't understand the biology of high altitude acclimation. 

 

CT has lower lactate production (because reduced glucose breakdown decreases the amount of lactate formed), decreased plasma volume, increased hemeatocrit (polycythemia), increased RBC mass, a higher concentration of capillaries in skeletal muscle tissue, increased myglobin, increased mitochondria, increased aerobic enzyme concentration, increase in 2,3-BG, hypoxic pulmonary vasoconstriction, and right ventricular hypertrophy. Pulmonary artery pressure also increases in an effort to oxygenate more blood.  His breathing is more efficient and his heart is stronger than yours at higher altitudes.

 

There is plenty of oxygen at 18,000 feet to survive the real issue is the lower PRESSURE to push the oxygen molecules into your lungs (fewer oxygen molecules per cubic foot of air at lower air pressure).   This is why you can use a cannula below 18k and a mask is required above that.

[FlyingMonkey]

Well, I didn't start the thread but I did provide the information you would need if someday you get an aircraft that can fly at the higher altitudes.  The rule is 12,501 and 30 mins max without, then oxygen with 'cannula' for the pilot.   Frankly, as usual I don't care how you and Eddie perceive the world of aviation, but I do care those who read these comments are given good information.

 

So, you think if the FAA requires O2 after thirty minutes at 12,501ft, you can safely fly ONE foot below that for nine hours?  That's the definition of "good information"?

[Ed Cesnalis]

I understand all that.  But I stand by my statements.  At high enough altitude there is simply not enough O2 available for those extra cells to scavenge.  

 

At real world altitudes I would maintain my advantage over you.  Imagine an Everest trip.  At every part of the trip I would have advantage because I am equipped to carry more O2 to my cells.

 

You said as altitude increases that acclimated people fall of FASTER,  what are you talking about there?

[FlyingMonkey]

You don't understand the biology of high altitude acclimation. 

 

CT has lower lactate production (because reduced glucose breakdown decreases the amount of lactate formed), decreased plasma volume, increased hemeatocrit (polycythemia), increased RBC mass, a higher concentration of capillaries in skeletal muscle tissue, increased myglobin, increased mitochondria, increased aerobic enzyme concentration, increase in 2,3-BG, hypoxic pulmonary vasoconstriction, and right ventricular hypertrophy. Pulmonary artery pressure also increases in an effort to oxygenate more blood.  His breathing is more efficient and his heart is stronger than yours at higher altitudes.

 

 

Oh, I get it.  Polycythemia also makes one more prone to clots and strokes.  There is no free lunch.