Newbee with landing flap questions.

[gbigs]

A pilot should know how to land with each and every flap setting.  You don't know when you may have an electrical failure, etc.  Each flap setting has a different stall speed.  If you know the stall speed and fly accordingly, landing with zero flaps is not dangerous.  You will use more runway, not bleeding off speed, but because your stall speed and landing speed will be higher.  There is an element of risk landing faster due to the increased inertia if you have a problem.  If you haven't learned to land your plane at every flap setting, you have not been properly checked out.

 

No one should repeat stalls just to stay fresh doing stalls.  You do them in a new plane to see how the plane stalls and what it feel like when a stall approaches so you can recognize them in critical situations - such as turning base to final. 

 

Same goes for non normal landing configuations.  You do no flap landings a few times to see how the plane reacts and to use one in an EMERGENCY, such as not being able to lower flaps which should happen never.  No one should do them regularly or in other than optimal conditions since zero flaps raises stall speeds and the chances of stalling slow and low to the ground increase with each attempt.    Since you need greater speed to avoid the higher stall speeds with no flaps you will need to fly level over the runway longer to bleed the speed before touching down and that requires longer runways.

 

Full flap landings also have a specific use.  They are to be used in short runways and/or soft/grass fields.  But if you have calm winds and a paved runway of adequate length the CT is landed using 15 flaps about 58kts over the numbers.  You can also land the plane in a moderate xwind using 15 flaps and slightly more speed if required.  Being proficient in that configuation is adequate to being safe in the plane.

 

It is also required to actually fly a CT before making assumptions about it's flying characteristics.

[sandpiper]

A pilot should know how to land with each and every flap setting.  You don't know when you may have an electrical failure, etc.  Each flap setting has a different stall speed.  If you know the stall speed and fly accordingly, landing with zero flaps is not dangerous.  You will use more runway, not bleeding off speed, but because your stall speed and landing speed will be higher.  There is an element of risk landing faster due to the increased inertia if you have a problem.  If you haven't learned to land your plane at every flap setting, you have not been properly checked out.

 

exactly!!

[sandpiper]

No one should repeat stalls just to stay fresh doing stalls.  You do them in a new plane to see how the plane stalls and what it feel like when a stall approaches so you can recognize them in critical situations - such as turning base to final. 

 

Same goes for non normal landing configuations.  You do no flap landings a few times to see how the plane reacts and to use one in an EMERGENCY, such as not being able to lower flaps which should happen never.  No one should do them regularly or in other than optimal conditions since zero flaps raises stall speeds and the chances of stalling slow and low to the ground increase with each attempt.    Since you need greater speed to avoid the higher stall speeds with no flaps you will need to fly level over the runway longer to bleed the speed before touching down and that requires longer runways.

 

Full flap landings also have a specific use.  They are to be used in short runways and/or soft/grass fields.  But if you have calm winds and a paved runway of adequate length the CT is landed using 15 flaps about 58kts over the numbers.  You can also land the plane in a moderate xwind using 15 flaps and slightly more speed if required.  Being proficient in that configuation is adequate to being safe in the plane.

 

It is also required to actually fly a CT before making assumptions about it's flying characteristics.

Yes, a pilot does need to remain proficient (fresh) doing stalls, landings with various flap settings, and other maneuvers. That doesn't mean you do them each flight, it means you do them frequently enough to remain proficient. For some pilots that means more often than others. It never hurts for an experienced pilot to get out every so often to clear out the cobb webs.. Even part 121 pilots have to do this every 6 months and they fly a lot more than we do.

 

To call these maneuvers dangerous is just not so. That is, unless the pilot does them so rarely that he has lost adequate proficiency. If that is the case, there is something wrong.

 

When I was out the other day I wrote down my indicated power off stall speeds at 1150#. They were as follows:

 

-6 was 50K

0 was  47K

15 was 42K

30 was 38K

 

Under normal conditions my operators manual specifies a final approach speed of 55K and 50K for flaps 15 and 30 respectively. I do it all the time and do not have problems. Amazingly these recommended approach speeds are very close to 1.3 times the stall speed.

 

For a minus 6 flap approach using 1.3 the final speed would be 65K for my weight that day. I hardly call that dangerously fast and a very short final speed would be 60K or 1.2 times stall speed.

 

We will probably never agree on this but I will stick to my ways which have served me well for 51 years flying many different small airplanes on wheels, skiis, and floats as well as flying Hueys for my uncle. All without mishap.

[Roger Lee]

"A pilot should know how to land with each and every flap setting."

 

I fully agree and I would add at all power settings. landing with power, landing at idle and landing at all power off in a glide. If you're not comfortable in a power off what will happen when there is an emergency and panic takes hold. No experience to keep panic from entering into the scenario and this is where people get hurt or killed..

 

These are about what I used to see.

"-6 was 50K

0 was  47K

15 was 42K

30 was 38K"

 

You should know any plane inside and out and all it's flight characteristics so you know what things to stay away from and what things will work when things aren't going so good.

[FlyingMonkey]

Landing without flaps is only recommended on long runways where you have the room needed to bleed off the excess speed.  No one needs to develop an unnecessary skill landing at higher stall speeds.  The POH states the plane can be landed near it's max xwind component using 15 flaps.   Landing with full flaps is also a rarely needed skill unless you know you will be landing on grass or soft fields from time to time.  But landing with full flaps is not dangerous, landing with zero or negative flaps is dangerous.

 

For a CT, a "long runway" is anything over 2000 feet.  

 

"Max demonstrated crosswind" is not the same as "max crosswind".  IIRC the max demonstrated for a CT is around 15 knots -- that's simply the number the factory has tested and documented, not the maximum the airplane is capable of.  The airplane can be safely landed well beyond that number, as many members have shown.  One of the techniques used to get higher crosswind performance is to land with lower (or even negative) flap settings.

 

Did you actually mean to say in your other post that practicing stalls is not required, or a good idea? 

[FlyingMonkey]

 

For a minus 6 flap approach using 1.3 the final speed would be 65K for my weight that day. I hardly call that dangerously fast and a very short final speed would be 60K or 1.2 times stall speed.

 

 

Not to mention touchdown speed will be very close to the 50kt stall speed you mentioned.  That's only 5kt more than the 45kt or so I touchdown at using 15° flaps.  Hardly suicidal.  

[ralarcon]

Not to mention touchdown speed will be very close to the 50kt stall speed you mentioned.  That's only 5kt more than the 45kt or so I touchdown at using 15° flaps.  Hardly suicidal.  

Agree !

 

Cheers

[ralarcon]

Being cautious is a good thing.  Being afraid of your airplane is not.

Good point.

 

Cheers

[WmInce]

A pilot should know how to land with each and every flap setting. You don't know when you may have an electrical failure, etc. Each flap setting has a different stall speed. If you know the stall speed and fly accordingly, landing with zero flaps is not dangerous. You will use more runway, not bleeding off speed, but because your stall speed and landing speed will be higher. There is an element of risk landing faster due to the increased inertia if you have a problem. If you haven't learned to land your plane at every flap setting, you have not been properly checked out.

 

If an airplane stalls at 42 knots with full flaps, for example, you might fly at 55 knots on short final. If the same airplane stalls at 60 knots with zero flaps, you might fly at 80 knots on short final. One is no more dangerous than the other except for the inertia due to the faster landing speed with zero flaps. Again, if you can't safely land your airplane with any and all flap settings, ground yourself.

 

Personally, I think it is good practice for a pilot to maintain proficiency in each and every maneuver that was required for his particular rating. I think most experienced pilots would agree. When you do a flight review, you may be asked to demonstrate anything you were expected to know on your flight test. There is certainly nothing wrong with practicing these maneuvers if you were properly trained and stay current in the airplane.

 

I haven't flown a CT, but I've flown 41 makes and models and would not hesitate to do any Commercial maneuvers in any of them, when I was current in the aircraft, unless the aircraft was placarded against certain maneuvers.

 

Being cautious is a good thing. Being afraid of your airplane is not.

Absolutely correct.

Excellent points . . . coming from a well experienced CFI . . who has been around the block a few times. Love it.

[Buckaroo]

Yup I understand your new awareness! I used to run my Ducati 999 at willow springs raceway in California just a hand full of years ago. Now just turning 68 in a few days I went and walked right into the leading edge of the wing and clunked my head big time.

 

There's no way I'm going to blame it on old age! It's just a new experience with a new aircraft!

[WmInce]

. . . Now just turning 68 in a few days I went and walked right into the leading edge of the wing and clunked my head big time.

There's no way I'm going to blame it on old age! It's just a new experience with a new aircraft!

Just a bit of friendly advice . . . watch out for that pitot tube!

It bends very easily.

[sandpiper]

Just a bit of friendly advice . . . watch out for that pitot tube!

It bends very easily.

 

Should we ask you how you know?

[WmInce]

 

Actually, I heard it through the grape vine.

That withstanding, I've bumped my head on it twice. Luckily, I did not bend it.

Based upon that, I no longer wear my ball cap (bill facing forward!) while walking about in my hangar.

[FlyingMonkey]

Just a bit of friendly advice . . . watch out for that pitot tube!

It bends very easily.

 

And a new one from FD USA is $157.  Ask me how I know.  

[Doug G.]

Yup I understand your new awareness! I used to run my Ducati 999 at willow springs raceway in California just a hand full of years ago. Now just turning 68 in a few days I went and walked right into the leading edge of the wing and clunked my head big time.

 

There's no way I'm going to blame it on old age! It's just a new experience with a new aircraft!

I no longer wear a ball cap around my plane. I only had to hit my head about 20 times for that to sink in. ????

[Buckaroo]

Is the pitot replacement easy or a wing take off? I've got lots of walkers in the hanger at times. I do have a red pitot cover on her with flag.

[FlyingMonkey]

Is the pitot replacement easy or a wing take off? I've got lots of walkers in the hanger at times. I do have a red pitot cover on her with flag.

It slides right out, and there is a barbed fitting on the backside the pitot line attaches to. Though I think FD told me there are three different pitot tube designs, so yours might be a bit different.

[Buckaroo]

That's good news! I'll probably walk into it one day.

[CTMI]

Not to back-track but, I'm the guy in Indiana roger said he trained. I was fortunate enough to have purchased Rogers plane and I have about 35 hours in it now. I thought being new to it I could lend my experience with ins and outs of the ongoing transition as it's quite fresh. I'm transitioning from a Sportcruiser. Here's the major things that inhad to work my head around.

 

1. The glide slope is much different

 

I was used to dropping in from 5-600 agl from a base that starts at 45 degrees from the runway. The problem is when I tried doing that in the Ctsw I couldn't land it; too high and/or too fast. Someone commented earlier that they always see 4 red on the VASI and I started laughing when I saw that. It took me quite a few go arounds to learn that the VASI isn't Ctsw approved. The glide slope to maintain 55-60 at flaps 15 is shallow, real shallow.

 

2. Downwind leg is longer (see above)

 

I find myself flying a longer downwind leg than I did in other planes. This makes sense as this plane glides so much further than other planes. I go further to give me more time to slow down and glide in, and I can do that without risking not making the field in the event of an engine out because the thing glides so well.

 

3. Too fast is REALLY bad

 

I came in too fast a couple times and bounced it. I came in too fast because I was too high on approach. Once the plane drops below 60 everything just clicks. No bounce no fuss. You need a shallow glide slope to maintain that sweet spot.

 

4. Flaps 15

 

I love landing the Ctsw with 15 flaps. I've landed with 0 and 30 and full, but 15 is my preference and my go to, here's why:

1. If/when things get gnarly, I'm going to land at 15 or 0, and in my limited experience 0 and 15 are very similar. That goes to say then that worst case scenarios with wind and x wind will require proficiency at this setting, so this is the setting I most seek to become proficient with.

 

2. At flaps 15, if I do a go around, that plane jumps when I go full throttle. As soon at I put the throttle forward that plane jumps 15 feet. I like that. If I push the throttle forward that messy approach is a distant memory and I'm gone.

 

3. I don't fly short runways often. I've landed at flaps 30 on a short runway, and it was good to do it, but barring a short runway, I'd just as soon stick with 15. That is to say, the advantages of fuller flaps is not all that appreciable or relavant on a longer runway. So why incur the disadvantages? (The disadvantages btw are that it gets a whole lot more squirrelly and you have to get your flare PERFECT or risk ballooning or bouncing)

 

5. Leave throttle in

 

I leave throttle at 2400 on final all the way to ground. I vary the throttle by +/- 200 rpm to adjust my glide on final. Roger taught me this, I did 0 throttle to practice engine out, but I reverted to leaving the throttle in. It keeps the controls crisp; I like that.

 

6. The rudder needs attention but it's not that big of a deal

 

I almost didn't get a Ctsw because of what people said about the rudder controls. I don't get it. It's sensitive, but it's not unruly. That's a huge distinction that I wish online writers would make. The sport cruiser I'm coming from requires very little rudder input. Put your feet on the floor if you want. But if you come in wrong, there was not much rudder authority with which to fix the yourself. The Ctsw requires rudder input in all modes of flight which requires your attention, but it's characteristics are predictable. What you get for that is a plane that you can fix your goof ups immediately and predictably. It has a lot of control and I can make the plane do what I want it to do right away. I like that.

[gbigs]

Not to back-track but, I'm the guy in Indiana roger said he trained. I was fortunate enough to have purchased Rogers plane and I have about 35 hours in it now. I thought being new to it I could lend my experience with ins and outs of the ongoing transition as it's quite fresh. I'm transitioning from a Sportcruiser. Here's the major things that inhad to work my head around.

 

1. The glide scope is much different

 

I was used to dropping in from 5-600 agl from a base that starts at 45 degrees from the runway. The problem is when I tried doing that in the Ctsw I couldn't land it; too high and/or too fast. Someone commented earlier that they always see 4 red on the VASI and I started laughing when I saw that. It took me quite a few go arounds to learn that the VASI isn't Ctsw approved. The glide scope to maintain 55-60 at flaps 15 is shallow, real shallow.

 

2. Downwind leg is longer (see above)

 

I find myself flying a longer downwind leg than I did in other planes. This makes sense as this plane glides so much further than other planes. I go further to give me more time to slow down and glide in, and I can do that without risking not making the field in the event of an engine out because the thing glides so well.

 

3. Too fast is REALLY bad

 

I came in too fast a couple times and bounced it. I came in too fast because I was too high on approach. Once the plane drops below 60 everything just clicks. No bounce no fuss. You need a shallow glide scope to maintain that sweet spot.

 

4. Flaps 15

 

I love landing the Ctsw with 15 flaps. I've landed with 0 and 30 and full, but 15 is my preference and my go to, here's why:

1. If/when things get gnarly, I'm going to land at 15 or 0, and in my limited experience 0 and 15 are very similar. That goes to say then that worst case scenarios with wind and x wind will require proficiency at this setting, so this is the setting I most seek to become proficient with.

 

2. At flaps 15, if I do a go around, that plane jumps when I go full throttle. As soon at I put the throttle forward that plane jumps 15 feet. I like that. If I push the throttle forward that messy approach is a distant memory and I'm gone.

 

3. I don't fly short runways often. I've landed at flaps 30 on a short runway, and it was good to do it, but barring a short runway, I'd just as soon stick with 15. That is to say, the advantages of fuller flaps is not all that appreciable or relavant on a longer runway. So why incur the disadvantages? (The disadvantages btw are that it gets a whole lot more squirrelly and you have to get your flare PERFECT or risk ballooning or bouncing)

 

5. Leave throttle in

 

I leave throttle at 2400 on final all the way to ground. I vary the throttle by +/- 200 rpm to adjust my glide on final. Roger taught me this, I did 0 throttle to practice engine out, but I reverted to leaving the throttle in. It keeps the controls crisp; I like that.

 

 

Not to nit pick, but don't you mean "glide slope" not scope?  I am trying to follow your experience but not familiar with the term.   Also, you should be able to land easily with no throttle in. One rule is to be at half pattern altitude when you are at half your base leg.  You may want to try that instead of worrying too much about flying over the numbers at 60 or above.  As long as you have runway you can land the plane near stall speed even flying a little faster than the POH states.  Just be patient and allow the speed to bleed off before flaring too much and dropping in.

[CTMI]

yes I was commenting on my preference not ability, its quite easy to land with no throttle I just prefer leaving some in, and it made things easier for me as someone who is new with the plane. As for striving for a certain height at a given point, it was exactly that which got me into trouble when I first started flying the Ctsw. I would respectfully advocate against that and indeed focus on arriving at the numbers at your target speed, rather than saying I must be this high at this point.

 

In other words, I prefer to modify my altitude to allow for my target speed rather than modify my target speed to allow for my altitude. A difference to be sure, but I just got sick of being 100 feet up going 70 at midfield LOL. YMMV.

 

 

Also yes I'm not sure why I had scope in my head; slope it is; corrected.

[gbigs]

yes I was commenting on my preference not ability, its quite easy to land with no throttle I just prefer leaving some in, and it made things easier for me as someone who is new with the plane. As for striving for a certain height at a given point, it was exactly that which got me into trouble when I first started flying the Ctsw. I would respectfully advocate against that and indeed focus on arriving at the numbers at your target speed, rather than saying I must be this high at this point.

 

In other words, I prefer to modify my altitude to allow for my target speed rather than modify my target speed to allow for my altitude. A difference to be sure, but I just got sick of being 100 feet up going 70 at midfield LOL. YMMV.

 

 

Also yes I'm not sure why I had scope in my head; slope it is; corrected.

 

It's all good.  The product is difficult to fly compared to larger aircraft.   I started out in the CT and am now in a Cirrus.  So my compare is opposite many on the board.  The plane is like a feather and the stick light to the touch and quick to respond.  And in varying wind conditions it takes even more skill and practice to get confident because each landing seems to be so much different.   But the one thing that keeps cropping up in everyone's experience and description is no matter what config you choose, and no matter how you approach the runway ultimately the plane requires real patience as it can seem to hang in the air too long.   And that interval of time over the runway can lead to mistake if you run out of patience.

[Buckaroo]

Great read from both View points! With my limited three landings I could feel the advantage of carrying a little rpm down to flair.

 

Now it's been two weeks waiting on my CFI's schedule and fighting the weather to finally get up in her.

 

I'm digesting these posts and will apply many of your tips soon. As soon as I get out for a two hour stint I'll be sure to post my observations.

 

Thanks both of you!

[Doug G.]

Check the landing distances in the CTLS POH. Am I reading it correct? The landing distances are higher for 30 degrees of flaps than 15??

[gbigs]

Check the landing distances in the CTLS POH. Am I reading it correct? The landing distances are higher for 30 degrees of flaps than 15??

 

I am seeing two numbers for max gross landing at 9k DA, landing roll and landing distance.  The landing roll for flaps 30 is 750 feet, for 15 its 650 feet.  But the landing distance for 30 is 2000, and for 15 is 2055.

 

I can see why the higher stall speed at the lower flap setting would need more runway...but I can't figure why the 30 flaps setting needs more roll since stall speed is lower and it presumes a touchdown at a slower speed.