Ed Cesnalis Posted September 28, 2017 Report Share Posted September 28, 2017 Doing 'everything' abeam the numbers allows me to control the nose for a few seconds at a single event. Throttle adjustment, closing the throttle, 1st notch, 2nd notch, pitching down all mess with the nose so I do all 5 at once and continuous control input isn't needed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FlyingMonkey Posted September 28, 2017 Report Share Posted September 28, 2017 Yeah, going to 30° is like deploying airbrakes. It feels much more gentle and smooth to me to go to 15° and slow down to the 55kt range, then go to 30° on final. That also gives me a better glide profile if the engine quits and I have to make the runway. It's just a style thing either way. As for being slow at 15°, several weeks ago I flew alongside a friend in his Kolb at 15° at 50 knots for about 25 miles. Easy peasy! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed Cesnalis Posted September 28, 2017 Report Share Posted September 28, 2017 3 minutes ago, FlyingMonkey said: As for being slow at 15°, several weeks ago I flew alongside a friend in his Kolb at 15° at 50 knots for about 25 miles. Easy peasy! I would never try that around Mammoth at least not close to the ground. Yesterday we were in a box canyon indicating 75kts at WOT and sinking 1,000' / min while pitched for steep climb. Got this photo of Clarence King off the right wing while in this condition. 75kts is my minimum speed I'm generally at 95kts in a place like this so that speed was my cue to exit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FlyingMonkey Posted September 28, 2017 Report Share Posted September 28, 2017 2 minutes ago, Ed Cesnalis said: Doing 'everything' abeam the numbers allows me to control the nose for a few seconds at a single event. Throttle adjustment, closing the throttle, 1st notch, 2nd notch, pitching down all mess with the nose so I do all 5 at once and continuous control input isn't needed. I understand why you do it that way. But I'm done with trim and most of my speed right away. If I'm using 15° I'm done, if using 30° I just go to 30 and repitch for final speed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FlyingMonkey Posted September 28, 2017 Report Share Posted September 28, 2017 29 minutes ago, Ed Cesnalis said: I would never try that around Mammoth at least not close to the ground. Well, duh! This was smooth air and no mountains in sight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Baker Posted September 28, 2017 Report Share Posted September 28, 2017 I didn't read all the post, but Andy has a spring in his control system that moves the stick forward, so he needs nose up trim at slow speeds to overcome the spring tension. Ed's CT is older and doesn't have the spring, so it gets trimmed the other way. And yes flaps will effect the trim. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed Cesnalis Posted September 28, 2017 Report Share Posted September 28, 2017 4 hours ago, FlyingMonkey said: So by the time you are on short final at touchdown speed, if you don't re-trim from your 62kt/30° setting, I suspect you need a good amount of back stick pressure into the landing. If so, then we are similar. We just make different choices on when & where to trim. No I go into the landing with zero stick pressure. I have zero from downwind to flare. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FlyingMonkey Posted September 28, 2017 Report Share Posted September 28, 2017 1 hour ago, Tom Baker said: I didn't read all the post, but Andy has a spring in his control system that moves the stick forward, so he needs nose up trim at slow speeds to overcome the spring tension. Ed's CT is older and doesn't have the spring, so it gets trimmed the other way. And yes flaps will effect the trim. Does the spring affect things that much? The spring tension is neutralized on my airplane almost as soon as I start moving on the runway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Baker Posted September 28, 2017 Report Share Posted September 28, 2017 1 hour ago, FlyingMonkey said: Does the spring affect things that much? The spring tension is neutralized on my airplane almost as soon as I start moving on the runway. Having flown both I would say yes. I didn't like the airplane with te spring. My SW took very little trim movement throughout the flight. The airplane with the spring took a bunch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FlyingMonkey Posted September 29, 2017 Report Share Posted September 29, 2017 3 hours ago, Tom Baker said: Having flown both I would say yes. I didn't like the airplane with te spring. My SW took very little trim movement throughout the flight. The airplane with the spring took a bunch. Interesting. I would say mine doesn't feel like it takes a lot of trim. In cruise to make a slight change I barely move the wheel at all. Of course, I'm used to it now. I have considered removing the spring, I know others have. But when I asked Flight Design they said it was an important part of the control system that was needed, so I left it alone. I like how mine flies and I'm used to it. Maybe Bill Ince and I could trade some time in each others' planes to see how the other half lives, since his doesn't have the spring. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Baker Posted September 29, 2017 Report Share Posted September 29, 2017 You say that you trim full nose up for landings, and that is what I saw with the one I flew that had the spring. All of the CTSW's that I have flown without the spring required very little trim change for landing, and certainly not full nose up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FlyingMonkey Posted September 29, 2017 Report Share Posted September 29, 2017 12 hours ago, Tom Baker said: You say that you trim full nose up for landings, and that is what I saw with the one I flew that had the spring. All of the CTSW's that I have flown without the spring required very little trim change for landing, and certainly not full nose up. Okay. My instructor's CTSW was also a 2007 with the spring, and he taught me the procedure I have used in both his and my airplane: 1) Abeam numbers, throttle to idle; once below 80kt select 15° flaps and roll trim all the way to the rear. 2) trim stays full aft through the landing sequence, at all flap settings. Tom, do you have exy experience with an airplane with the additional spring that has had the spring deleted? If so, does it fly like other CTSWs or differently? Does the CTLS have a similar spring system, or are the very late model CTSWs an anomaly? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Baker Posted September 29, 2017 Report Share Posted September 29, 2017 35 minutes ago, FlyingMonkey said: Tom, do you have exy experience with an airplane with the additional spring that has had the spring deleted? If so, does it fly like other CTSWs or differently? Does the CTLS have a similar spring system, or are the very late model CTSWs an anomaly? My customer who had the airplane with the spring has passed. The spring was not removed while he had the airplane. The late 2007 CT were an anomaly. The CTLS did not have the spring. When I am working in the pattern with the CTLS I don't normally adjust the trim. I normally use 15° flaps for takeoff and I hold forward pressure on takeoff until I go to 0° flaps. I reduce power to around 4500 rpm and trim for level flight. This trim setting normally yields about 60kts for gliding. After the first trip around the pattern I normally don't need to adjust the trim. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FlyingMonkey Posted September 29, 2017 Report Share Posted September 29, 2017 Tom, are you aware of any changes to the control system of the late 2007 airplanes with the spring, other than the spring install? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Baker Posted September 29, 2017 Report Share Posted September 29, 2017 1 hour ago, FlyingMonkey said: Tom, are you aware of any changes to the control system of the late 2007 airplanes with the spring, other than the spring install? I have not been deep into the control system for either to make a worth while comparison. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger Lee Posted September 29, 2017 Report Share Posted September 29, 2017 Hi Andy, Yes there have been, but mainly to the LS models. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FlyingMonkey Posted September 30, 2017 Report Share Posted September 30, 2017 3 hours ago, Roger Lee said: Hi Andy, Yes there have been, but mainly to the LS models. So, a 2007 CTSW that removes the spring pretty much flies like any other CTSW? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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