CTSW flap problems on final

[FredG]

Click on the "Activity" tab in the blue bar at the top of the page.  Then, click on the "search" button.  When the search window opens, insert "flap" as the search term and open the search by author feature and enter "FredG".  You will be presented with only four or five options.  You will see the option with the photos. 

Or, you can try this link: https://www.ctflier.com/search/?&q=flap&author=FredG&search_and_or=or

and look at the fifth entry.

[Anticept]

Direct link to thread in question:

 

[Madhatter]

If my flap actuator fails I will strip out all the current flap system and install a different actuator with a degree indicator.  Probably an actuator used in the RV10 which has similar dimensions and much better attributes. Planes have been using this method for about 80 years with no issues.

[Bulldog]

Hi Everyone - Thanks for all of the great information on flap problems! I'm currently having an issue where the flaps won't move at all (even just sitting on the ground) and the indicator simply flashes the number that I select. Manual mode doesn't work either.  

After poring over a few of the flap threads here on the forum, below is going to be my troubleshooting plan. Is this the best approach? 

1. Reseat connectors
2. Go through flap reprogramming
3. Check the board on the firewall for cracked solder point
4. Lube jackscrew with Inox by removing screw from side of the tube
5. Lube motor gearbox by removing black push plug
6. Disassemble/clean/lube actuator and jack screw with moly grease
7. Finally, do I need to adjust the potentiometer? 

Thanks!

Nick

@Anticept @FredG @Madhatter @FlyingMonkey @DownUnderFlier

[FredG]

Nick, my first question is whether the linear actuator is getting electricity when you select various flap settings.  The fact that manual mode does not work makes me think that it isn't getting electricity.  To find out, you can disconnect the two wires that attach to the linear actuator motor and put a meter across them and check for 12v when you change flap settings.  If there is no electric current to the actuator, then your items 4-6 are unnecessary.  BTW, remember to connect the wires to the actuator the way you found them.  Otherwise the motor will run in reverse.

I do not remember whether failure of the potentiometer results in no flap movement.  I would expect them to still work on manual, but I am not sure.  

Your item 1 is easy and no cost.  Your item 2 requires use of a reprogramming switch - and seems like a good idea if you have one.  Item 3 is a bit of a pain, but the board is a source of lots of problems.  They can fail with no visible broken solder  joints.  

Good luck.

 

[Anticept]

Failure of the flap potentiometer will create error messages if the signal is out of range.

Constant flashing of numbers means it is calling for movement but the motor is not turning.

Check for 12v power at the motor terminals first.

If it's the old flap system... the stupid relay board's (on the firewall) solder joints like to crack behind the relays, reflowing them solves the issue.

[FlyingMonkey]

On 6/14/2023 at 10:23 AM, Madhatter said:

If my flap actuator fails I will strip out all the current flap system and install a different actuator with a degree indicator.  Probably an actuator used in the RV10 which has similar dimensions and much better attributes. Planes have been using this method for about 80 years with no issues.

Do you have a link to the hardware you'd use?  I'm interested.

[Bulldog]

Thank you guys! I’ll let you know what I find. 

[Bulldog]

@FredG You called it! No power to the actuator. I ran through the reprogramming and I’m back in action! Thank you!!

 Nick

[FredG]

Nick, good news.  Thanks for the update.

[Bulldog]

Well, I spoke too soon. I went out this afternoon to fly a few hours and I got the same indication as before, flashing number corresponding to the selected flap position and no flap movement. I was ultimately able to get the flaps to cycle prior to takeoff after playing around with the flap switch and cycling the master breaker. I flew about 2.5 hours and when getting back in the pattern, I got the flashing number issue again. After a few minutes, I did get 15 degrees for landing, but now after landing, they won't cycle at all again. I'm thinking I either have a bad solder point on the board, or the board is just bad. I'm going to pull the board out on Tuesday to inspect it and will post my findings. 

Nick

@FredG

[Roger Lee]

This may only be a bad wire connection. I've  seen  this a dozen times. Usually the lose or disconnected wire is behind the lower center panel and may have come after someone was in the panel  area. Cramming baggage in the baggage area may have caused a wire issue too.

[Bulldog]

@Roger Lee Thanks! I’ll double check and twist them all as well. Will post an update hopefully sometime Tuesday. 

[Bulldog]

Well, it's my turn to have a bad relay board. After firmly seating and rotating all of the connectors, the flaps were working properly again, but I tried to go for another test flight this evening, and as soon as I fired up the engine, I had the same symptoms  as before - no flap movement and flashing indicator (of the degrees selected). I shut down the engine, pulled off the top middle panel and tapped/squeezed on the relay board while changing the flap position switch, and that did the trick. 

So I removed the relay board (after fighting with the top rivnut, which was spinning), and I think I see a very slight crack around one solder point on each relay, each point being identical on both relays. 

I just emailed Rich Meske at Aircraft Extras, to see if he wants to analyze this board - see this thread.

I'll see what he says, but I'm also going to check on pricing and lead time for a new board from FD.

Here's a video of my faulty board.

Nick

[FlyingMonkey]

Sorry to hear this Bulldog.  These airplanes are starting to age and things like this are bound to fail.  Every time I see something like this I say a little prayer that parts availability doesn't just dry up on our airplanes as it has for many other LSAs.

Good luck on the repair, let us know how it proceeds and if you find a shop that does good work on it.

[Bulldog]

Upon very close inspection, I definitely have hairline cracks in the solder points on the two relays.

[Anticept]

That's where it happens. I've had to repair a board twice by reflow, another person had to do it, and I know someone over in the UK that has claimed a few.

Remove the coating (soldering heat alone works), remove the solder, and use a GOOD QUALITY EUTECTIC solder. sn63/pb37 is a leaded eutectic solder, and extremely easy to use due to the lower melting point. Use a fume extractor!

If lead is an absolute nogo, find a eutectic without lead from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solder_alloys . Pay attention to liquidus temperature, the higher it is the harder it gets to work with.

[FredG]

I soldered a broken connection on a relay board several years ago.  

[Mike Koerner]

The relay is probably the heaviest and tallest component on the board. Engine vibrations, and perhaps airframe loads as well, put lots of stress cycles on these solder joints.

Perhaps as a prophylactic measure, those of us whose flaps still work should run a couple wraps of electrical tape over the top of the solenoids and around the bottom side of the board, and then a layer of gorrilla tape over the top of that?

[GrassStripFlyBoy]

39 minutes ago, Mike Koerner said:

Perhaps as a prophylactic measure, those of us whose flaps still work should run a couple wraps of electrical tape over the top of the solenoids and around the bottom side of the board, and then a layer of gorrilla tape over the top of that?

I can't see that hurting, certainly will consider that on upcoming inspection.

[FlyingMonkey]

1 hour ago, Mike Koerner said:

The relay is probably the heaviest and tallest component on the board. Engine vibrations, and perhaps airframe loads as well, put lots of stress cycles on these solder joints.

Perhaps as a prophylactic measure, those of us whose flaps still work should run a couple wraps of electrical tape over the top of the solenoids and around the bottom side of the board, and then a layer of gorrilla tape over the top of that?

I don’t know how hot those components get…

[Bulldog]

Well, I ended up working with Rich Meske from Aircraft Extras, and he was able to repair my relay board. It's been 100% for about 5 hours now. Rich is very experienced with electronics, and I'd recommend keeping him in mind if you run into flap issues. His contact info is:

https://www.aircraftextras.com/ContactInfo.htm

Rich Meske P.E.
4908 Mc Kenna Ct.
Columbus, OH  43221
(614) 876-6345
sales@aircraftextras.com

 

[swedishCT]

Hey guys, since I'm the one who started this thread, I feel it's only appropriate that I provide some feedback on the problems I encountered and how I resolved them. Before I begin, I must express my gratitude to this forum for helping me learn how to troubleshoot the system and identify common issues.

 

In my case, it turned out to be microscopic cracks in the solder on the PCB that holds the right relay.

 

Here's how I troubleshoot the system:

 

1. I disconnected the two cables connected to the flap actuator and connected a multimeter.

2. Operated the flaps while observing the multimeter, and sure enough, I noticed that when I had the error, there was no power going to the motor.

3. Just to double-check the actuator, I directly applied 12v from a car battery to the motor multiple times to ensure it worked as it should, which it did.

4. Opened up the center console to gain access to the PCB mounted on the firewall.

5. Unmounted the PCB and marked the cables. Unfortunately, I had to cut the cables since there was some kind of glue in the screw connectors.

6. Once I had the PCB in my hand, I noticed cracks in the solder at two spots.

7. Cleaned off the conformal coating with acetone and cotton swabs.

8. Checked the joints under a microscope to identify the weak spots.

9. Re-soldered the cracked joints.

10. Sprayed on some transparent conformal coating.

11. Put it on some vibration dampers onto the firewall and reinstalled the PCB.

 

So far, the flaps have been working like a charm. Thanks a lot for all your support, guys!

[Anticept]

That's now person #7 that has had to repair that board by resoldering.