Bill3558 Posted November 8, 2023 Report Share Posted November 8, 2023 My flaps are stuck. On a trip a few days ago they wouldn’t retract from 15degrees. By pushing the flap up, the motor engaged and they retracted to zero. I flew home with that setting. In home pattern , they went down and everything seemed ok. On the ground they worked normally. Flew this morning and after landing, same problem. Flaps would not retract. Talked to Tom at FD and he suggested replacing the flap motor potentiometer whatever that is. Any suggestions? I’m just sick my bird is grounded with 30 flaps. I can’t even fly it to a repair facility. N838Q. 2013 CTLSi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill3558 Posted November 8, 2023 Author Report Share Posted November 8, 2023 IMG_2204.MOV Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill3558 Posted November 8, 2023 Author Report Share Posted November 8, 2023 Update. Jiggling the wires going into the flap motor brought the flaps up. I think I’m getting warm. Has anyone ever had to pull this motor? It doesn’t look easy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Towner Posted November 8, 2023 Report Share Posted November 8, 2023 I’ve been going through some flap issues too. I’ve read every post on the forum that contains the word “flaps”. There were several posts regarding issues with the motor. I don’t recall any on removing the motor, but there were some on disassembly and reassembly with pics. Also sounds like these are very expensive to purchase new if you can even get one. There are also some posts on lube for the motor assembly attachments and for testing of current to the motor. The potentiometer seems to go out occasionally. Should be easy to replace and is a fairly cheap part. Lots of flap articles to read and seems like a number of issues can cause similar problems. I’m going step by step with mine and haven’t found the issue yet. One thing for the motor, if it works fine in manual mode, the motor probably isn’t the issue. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FredG Posted November 9, 2023 Report Share Posted November 9, 2023 I have worked on the flap linear actuator on my 2006 CTsw (including the motor unit) and posted on CTflier a detailed explanation (with photos) of disassembling and reassembling the actuator. The flap motor is integrated into the linear actuator. If the flap motor isn't running and the flaps are (obviously) not moving when the flap position switch is moved, the first question is whether electricity is getting to the flap motor. That can be tested by removing the two lead from the motor and testing them with a volt meter when the flap switch is moved. BE SURE TO MARK THE WIRES AND REPLACE THEM ON THE MOTOR IN THE SAME ORIENTATION THEY WERE IN WHEN REMOVED. OTHERWISE, THE MOTOR WILL RUN IN REVERSE. Regarding flaps stuck at 30 degrees... If the problem is in the flap control system and not in the flap motor (linear actuator), then the flaps can be moved by providing 12V DC directly to the motor itself via the two terminals on the bottom of the motor. The direction the motor runs can be reversed simply by reversing positive and negative wires to the motor. By energizing the motor very briefly, you can determine the direction of flap movement without jamming the system to the end of its travel. Once you know the direction the motor is moving the flaps, you can set the flaps to zero or even reflex (either by eye or with a level). WARNING: If you go past the range of travel in either direction, you can destroy the motor or the entire linear actuator (since the usual microswitch travel limiters will be bypassed). If I had to fly my airplane to a repair center and my flaps were stuck at 30 degrees, I would attempt to move them to zero by applying 12V directly to the motor (after ensuring that I was running the motor in the correct direction). Given the potential for damage, this approach is only recommended for those who are very comfortable with such wiring and able to take the steps (mostly observation) necessary to prevent damage to the flap mechanism. Also, depending on the registration of the airplane (ELSA versus SLSA) there may be restrictions on who is authorized to do such troubleshooting. Finally, my comments are for information purposes, only. I am not advising nor recommending any specific course of action. I am only describing what my personal approach would be if I were in such a situation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Madhatter Posted November 9, 2023 Report Share Posted November 9, 2023 Unfortunately the CT flap system is way over engineered. I'm sure that the analysis of any problem is very doable but the issue to me is the expense of individual parts. So far I have not seen any problems with mine but if any occur and the expense is outrageous I will remove the entire system and install a common sense system found in most certified aircraft. I have located all the required parts with correct dimensions at much less cost which will be far more reliable. As these aircraft get older a lot of these issues will become more common. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill3558 Posted November 9, 2023 Author Report Share Posted November 9, 2023 Fred, apparently my problem is a loose wire connection at the motor. The wires appear to go into a cap or a housing of some sort at the bottom of the motor. Can you tell me how the wires connect? Does the cap come off to expose the wire terminals. Many thanks gents. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FredG Posted November 9, 2023 Report Share Posted November 9, 2023 Yes, the bottom-most round black plastic cap should pop right off and expose the two flat spade terminals for electrical power to the motor. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Towner Posted November 9, 2023 Report Share Posted November 9, 2023 Fred, if I use the manual setting in the flaps, do the micro switch travel limiters still work? My manual flap adjustment works and I occasionally use it to adjust stuff while working on it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FredG Posted November 9, 2023 Report Share Posted November 9, 2023 Yes, the microswitch travel limiters do work when using the flap control switch in manual mode. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Towner Posted November 9, 2023 Report Share Posted November 9, 2023 1 hour ago, FredG said: Yes, the microswitch travel limiters do work when using the flap control switch in manual mode. Thanks! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill3558 Posted November 9, 2023 Author Report Share Posted November 9, 2023 My flap motor is different. Mine is a MT10D-0150. No spade connectors. A white wire comes off the harness, goes into the cap where it is connected to a black wire that goes up into the motor. I’m afraid that’s where the bad connection is. Inside the motor. It’s difficult getting support on this problem. I’m in North Carolina. Anyone know a mechanic familiar with these airplanes? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FredG Posted November 9, 2023 Report Share Posted November 9, 2023 The flap motor in my 2006 CTsw is also an MT-10D-0150, but there must be several variations. See photo that shows flat spade terminals. I am not sure how to get inside the bottom of the motor unit to repair the wiring if there is no easily removed cap. I would think that there are two wires. The motor reverses direction by reversing the polarity of the electrical connections. You may want to contact the manufacturer to see if they can provide you with a solution to the wiring problem. See link: https://www.ade.de/en/drive-technology/linear-drives-mini-lift-gears/technical-information.html Fred Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill3558 Posted November 9, 2023 Author Report Share Posted November 9, 2023 Super helpful. Thanks Fred. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill3558 Posted November 11, 2023 Author Report Share Posted November 11, 2023 Turns out that FD soldered the motor wires to the spade terminals ( you can’t see that because it’s covered with a rubber boot) and one broke off. I installed spade connectors on both terminals and it’s all good now. Thanks for the helpful advice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FredG Posted November 11, 2023 Report Share Posted November 11, 2023 Bill, great that you made that discovery. I'm sure it feels good to have that problem solved. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anticept Posted January 19 Report Share Posted January 19 These stupid junk flaps I swear. (i'm struggling to avoid typing a string of 4 letter profanities and blowing up flight design's phone over this) Mine failed again after replacement less than 6 months ago. I can move the flaps by hand with no problem with the actuator disconnected. No trouble at all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
procharger Posted January 20 Report Share Posted January 20 Momentary Motor Polarity Reverse reversing Rocker Switch Control DPDT DC 12V or 24V Visit the Tbrand Store 4.7 4.7 out of 5 stars 182 ratings Would would happen if you installed this switch? | Search this page Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FredG Posted January 20 Report Share Posted January 20 It depends on how much automation you want in your flap system. If you wanted a very simple, non-automated system, all of the FD control stuff could be removed and a very simple circuit that lowers or raises the flaps when a DPDT momentary-on switch is depressed could be installed. The problem is that the travel limit microswitches would have to be moved so that they function to stop the flaps at 6 degrees up and 30 degrees down (or whatever down angle you want) settings. That would allow the pilot to hold the switch down or up and just waiting until the motor stops running. Note that without the limit switches, the flap actuator motor will burn out or the gears will strip if power is applied but the flap has reached the end of its travel. So, the limit switches are an important feature of the flap system. The other flap settings (0 deg, 15 deg), however, would require a visual mark on the flap bracket so the flaps could be set by eye. For a simple, manually-controlled, limit switch protected circuit, see, for example, https://s3.amazonaws.com/actuonix/Actuonix+Limit+Switch+Kit+Datasheet.pdf With additional engineering, a position sensor could be installed on the flap (Ray Allen makes them, among others) and a display of flap angle could be provided on a Skyview or a separate display (if you didn't want to look at the flap, itself). Other, more automated systems are marketed for experimental aircraft that allow the flaps to be set to specific, user-defined angles, could be retrofitted. They have programming functionality like the current FD system. Type "experimental airplane flap motor circuit" into your search engine to see a wide range of options. The advantage of any retrofit, obviously, is no longer being stuck with FD proprietary parts. None of this, of course, would be permitted for an S-LSA. BTW, I know there is some complaining about the flap actuator unit itself. It is not maintenance-free, for sure, but with disassembly, cleaning, and lubrication, mine is working just fine at 1500 hours. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anticept Posted January 20 Report Share Posted January 20 I have the old flap system which has the separate on firewall relay system. The on firewall relays are wired to the microswitches on the flap actuator, it is next to impossible to overtravel them without the microswitches themselves failing. So three wires is all that has to be hooked into, to control the up and down. I had discussed this before with flight design, they would approve a retrofit to a simple up down switch, but it would require that I install a position indicator. Could be done out on the wings with an arc and sweep dial. But it won't solve the issue. The issue is the actuator. They don't seem to like operating in these cold conditions. Once it was warmed up they moved normally. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Madhatter Posted January 20 Report Share Posted January 20 Like I said earlier the flap system is way over engineered unfortunately. A lot of GA aircraft including my 310 used a momentary up/down/neutral switch with a position indicator, very simple and maintenance free. Sometimes pre select can be a disadvantage. I have been looking at the RV10 flap actuator which is the same stroke as the CT with internal stops. There is also a processor where programmable positions are available. I have not looked into this in great detail but it looks promising should I get to that point. And the price is reasonable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jacques Posted January 20 Report Share Posted January 20 33 minutes ago, Madhatter said: Like I said earlier the flap system is way over engineered unfortunately. A lot of GA aircraft including my 310 used a momentary up/down/neutral switch with a position indicator, yep,, you need nothing more..... how does the position indicator work....??? thanks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FredG Posted January 20 Report Share Posted January 20 Corey, I don't know what cold means where you live, but my linear actuator is good down to 20 degF or lower, without problems. Why not just find a low wattage warming element and attach it to the flap actuator. Even just a couple of 12v light bulbs (automobile turn signal stuff). If the problem is a cold actuator, just warm it up a bit. There are plenty of actuator controllers on the market, Spruce has several for experimental aircraft. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anticept Posted January 20 Report Share Posted January 20 Its below 0f here occasionally in the air. Can hear the motor straining on several of them. I also have far more cycles than you do, easily. Anyways, it would likely take a lot more than a bulb. The bay back there is very cold. Really, what would be ideal is if there was a higher gear ratio so that it would develop greater torque. I'd be willing for them to move twice as slow if it meant the motor could run easily. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Madhatter Posted January 20 Report Share Posted January 20 2 hours ago, Jacques said: yep,, you need nothing more..... how does the position indicator work....??? thanks I believe it's an electronically controlled module that can be programed. I'll have to look more into it. The big issue is that this particular actuator is close in physical size to the original so install is less of a challenge. It would be an interesting project. Some early and current aircraft have manual flaps with a lever and can be made to do some pretty amazing things with them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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