Flaps failed in the Minus 6 (-6) position.

[Blueyonder]

Hi everyone.

2014 CTLSi had this noisy sound since the first day and the word from the mechs was, "it's normal".

Today it failed in the -6 and changing to anything else there is no movement no noise just get a blinking / Error type, red LED in every other position other than -6.

It knows when it's in the -6, there is a solid LED displayed, but everywhere else it blinks, and I feel No attempt to get movement, no twitching, noise, vibration...

Motor?  Relays?, likely can we still buy them?

Where? Acft Spruce no longer sells any FD design part?

Any pics, docs?

Thank you.

 

[Tom Baker]

Aircraft Spruce has never carried any Flight Design airframe specific parts. For airframe specific parts Airtime Aviation will be your go to source in the US. 

Do a search here on the forum, and there will be plenty of information to get you started with trouble shooting.

[Roger Lee]

Do the flaps work in manual mode?

Before you throw any money at this try these two things.

Remove the lower center panel and on the back where the wires to the flap switch is push them all in and twist any of the round bullet style connectors. 

Second try reprogramming the potentiometer with the two switches I hope you or someone you know has.

[Blueyonder]

Hi everyone.

Thank you, Roger and Tom for the feedback.

I was thinking to start out with a parts source, which Tom mentioned, and see what is available first.

The plane only has about 10 hrs out of the Annual but there is no information if the Flaps section was inspected, but they worked for a while.

Looking at some of the manuals and the schematics I find are somewhat useless, unless you are familiar with what they are describing, no pics of the location of the items, parts are mentioned in one drawing and have no continuity to another...

There are no mechanics around LAX that really know this plane, it's always a crap shoot when you take it in and will never know what you get out.

Thanks again. I will try to see what Airtime has in the parts dept before we get started.

 

[Anticept]

Check the connections to the motor in the cargo bay on the flap jackscrew mechanism. Those sometimes slip off.

[Blueyonder]

48 minutes ago, Anticept said:

Check the connections to the motor in the cargo bay on the flap jackscrew mechanism.

Hi.

Yes, that will be the first thing for us to look at, and if there is no voltage at the motor we will work backwards to find the reason why. I am still unable to get a good pic. of the area where the flap motor is, from any of the manuals, I will have to go and take some pics myself.

I am unable to get any information about what parts are/ are not available, everyone is closed until after New year.

Have a great New Year everyone, and thanks for all your help.

[Towner]

Tons of stuff on the forum regarding flap issues. Before looking for parts, you definitely want to do some troubleshooting. As stated above, loose connections at the motor or behind the flap switch are the easiest to start with. From there, type in “flaps” in the search function on this forum and start reading! It seems like flap problems are one of the biggest issues with these planes.

Often the control board will have an area with a cracked solder that can been fixed instead of buying a new $1200 control board.

Other flap problems are also covered in the forum, so read everything. If your mechanic isn’t familiar with the planes, and you aren’t doing the work yourself (experimental), you may have to explain what you have read to the mechanic so they know what to look for.

[Blueyonder]

Hi,

Yes I did that but did not find "exactly" the pic of the area / specific place as it relates to the baggage location.

I've got a very good idea where it is but I did not take good enough close up  pictures of the specific area.

50 minutes ago, Towner said:

From there, type in “flaps” in the search function on this forum and start reading!

 

[Anticept]

You can text me when you get the flap system in front of you.

[Towner]

Look for this in the baggage area and check the two wires on the bottom. For the other wires mentioned, you have to pull the center of the panel out (the plate that the flap switch is attached to) and check the wire connections in there. It’s very easy to open that panel and get to the wires.

It was already asked if your flaps work in manual mode. Whether it does or doesn’t can make a difference on places to troubleshoot.

[Blueyonder]

2 hours ago, Towner said:

It was already asked if your flaps work in manual mode. Whether it does or doesn’t can make a difference on places to troubleshoot.

Hi.

I did not know if that feature is available for the CTLSi? I never used it and or know how to use it. I see no description in any of the Manuals from FD.

Can you explain how that works, the procedure to use it?

Thank you.

[shiny.ice]

8 hours ago, Blueyonder said:

 

There are no mechanics around LAX that really know this plane, it's always a crap shoot when you take it in and will never know what you get out.

 

There’s a shop at Brackett that has worked on a lot of them.

[Blueyonder]

2 hours ago, shiny.ice said:

There’s a shop at Brackett that has worked on a lot of them

Hi.

Do you know the name, what type of services they provide, Electric, Engine, Body work..

I do not see them on the map. Thank you.

 

[Towner]

4 hours ago, Blueyonder said:

Hi.

I did not know if that feature is available for the CTLSi? I never used it and or know how to use it. I see no description in any of the Manuals from FD.

Can you explain how that works, the procedure to use it?

Thank you.

I fly a CTSW, but I believe all models have the manual flap mode, but I could be wrong.

If the flap lever handle was pointing straight up, consider that 0 degrees. Now, turn the handle to the right until it is facing 270 degrees. You should now be in manual mode. If you click the handle up one notch, the flaps should begin to retract. Down one notch from 270 and they begin to extend. These movements will continue until the handle is returned to the 270 degree position or until they hit the electric stops. There are no preset positions in this mode and it is simply a continuous up or down motion until placed back at 270 degrees to stop the motion.

Hopefully that makes sense.

[shiny.ice]

2 hours ago, Blueyonder said:

Hi.

Do you know the name, what type of services they provide, Electric, Engine, Body work..

Wingnuts Aero. Definitely body and engine, he does lots of Rotax engines and is blessed to do the Flight Design composite work. Map pin is in Chino, he moved in the past year. https://www.wingnuts.aero/

 

 

[GrassStripFlyBoy]

9 hours ago, Blueyonder said:

I did not know if that feature is available for the CTLSi? I never used it and or know how to use it. I see no description in any of the Manuals from FD.

Can you explain how that works, the procedure to use it?

If you're not able to rotate the switch clockwise around past the lowest flap setting to enter manual mode, this post explains how to move the stop within the switch.

 

[Blueyonder]

Hi everyone.

Thank you all for the feedback.

I am still trying to understand the procedure for "Manual Mode".

In this post:

https://www.ctflier.com/topic/5857-flap-problems-intermittent-on-auto-select/

>>….but I also then pushed the pot / board looser to panel and noticed a washer float up off top of pot - and then it rotates around into the manual mode region! ...<<

does that imply that there is a need to Pull the switch handle out to get in Manual Mode?

This thread reminds me of the 70s when the boards did not have plated through holes, I never considered that to come up again 50 years later.

Thanks everyone, and have a Great New year.

 

[Towner]

8 hours ago, Blueyonder said:

….but I also then pushed the pot / board looser to panel and noticed a washer float up off top of pot - and then it rotates around into the manual mode region! .

I think he was referring to why his switch wasn’t working correctly, not so much as how to use the manual mode. The washer has a tab that goes into a hole on the switch. The washer was loose on his, preventing proper functioning of the switch.

For manual, just turn the switch to 270 degrees. Nothing should happen there, but if you move the switch one click up or down from 270, you should get flap movement in the corresponding direction.

[Blueyonder]

Hi.

OK, thanks.

If the Switch / Knob does not go beyond ~160 deg., 30 Deg. flap position, it does not have the Manual position?

 

[GrassStripFlyBoy]

16 hours ago, Blueyonder said:

does that imply that there is a need to Pull the switch handle out to get in Manual Mode?

No.  Either your switch will rotate clockwise into the manual region, or you need to disassemble it and relocate the tang into the furthest position shown below. 

[Bill3558]

On 12/28/2023 at 6:16 PM, Blueyonder said:

Hi everyone.

2014 CTLSi had this noisy sound since the first day and the word from the mechs was, "it's normal".

Today it failed in the -6 and changing to anything else there is no movement no noise just get a blinking / Error type, red LED in every other position other than -6.

It knows when it's in the -6, there is a solid LED displayed, but everywhere else it blinks, and I feel No attempt to get movement, no twitching, noise, vibration...

Motor?  Relays?, likely can we still buy them?

Where? Acft Spruce no longer sells any FD design part?

Any pics, docs?

Thank you.

 

Had the same problem recently in my 2013 CTLSi.  It was a broken connection at the flap motor. Dial in a different flap setting and try jiggling the wires at the flap motor. 

[Towner]

13 hours ago, Blueyonder said:

Hi.

OK, thanks.

If the Switch / Knob does not go beyond ~160 deg., 30 Deg. flap position, it does not have the Manual position?

 

The manual mode is not marked in any way. Make sure you physically try to move the lever to the 270 setting, not just stop and the end of the marks on the panel.  It should move easily through, so don’t try and force it if it isn’t turning.

If it physically only moves to 160, you probably do have a loose washer. If that’s the case, Merry Christmas because that’s a super easy 5 minute fix you can do yourself!

[Blueyonder]

Hello everyone.

Thank you all for the feedback.

This reminds me of the old days where the Masters never gave you all the techniques in Martial arts, kakushite / hidden hand / concealed, techniques. You'd have to learn them by yourself.

I think I fully understand now. I will keep everyone posted about the fix when it happens.

Have a great New Year everyone

[Anticept]

The main thing is that either we would have to write a novel for every issue so you COULD have every technique, or we just don't remember every little path to take.

There's a flow to troubleshooting. It's an art and a science. The science part is following a logical course of actions, the art is knowing not only the symptoms, but evaluating their severity. You can have systems, flaps included, where a consistently weak flap movement can have a different cause than an intermittent one.

It just takes time to work though!

[Towner]

The POH for the planes isn’t very good.

I think another thing to become familiar with on these planes is fuel flow from one tank to the other. You can have one tank site show empty and the other show 10 gallons! Sometimes this is caused by flying in a slip or skid. Sometimes it’s is an accurate reading and one tank is low or empty.

From reading on here, some believe if one tank is empty, flying in a slip or skid can unport fuel in the tank with fuel, causing a loss of fuel flow to the engine. Not good!

It’s pretty easy to transfer fuel from one tank to the other while flying though. Simply fly with the ball out of center. If you fly with the ball 1/2 to a full ball out of center, the fuel will start a slow transfer. Fuel always moves in the direction of the ball! While flying out of center to transfer, the site gauges do not read accurately. Occasionally return the ball to center and check fuel sites to determine when the tanks are fairly equal.

It made me a little uncomfortable flying with one tank showing substantially lower when I first got the plane. I read about the issue and solution on this site. It was great information and the transfer method works great, just a little slow. It’s something everyone should know about these planes.