Flaps failed in the Minus 6 (-6) position.

[Anticept]

The loss of fuel flow from unporting isn't unique to flight design, any aircraft suffers from it but usually there are pumps close to the tanks that remedy the issue.

Exclusively gravity fed systems can normally purge air too, but something with several flight designs I have worked with is preventing flow from restarting very easily if fuel is low.

I'm still trying to discover the cause consistently.

[Madhatter]

I'm sure air gets into the system. Many later model planes, cub replicas and others have forward and rear fuel ports in each tank that eliminates the issue. Extremely low fuel doesn’t help anything so why do it. In 55 yrs of flying all kinds of aircraft I have never been dangerously low on fuel.

[Towner]

1 hour ago, Madhatter said:

I'm sure air gets into the system. Many later model planes, cub replicas and others have forward and rear fuel ports in each tank that eliminates the issue. Extremely low fuel doesn’t help anything so why do it. In 55 yrs of flying all kinds of aircraft I have never been dangerously low on fuel.

I never said anything about being low on fuel. I’ve never been low on fuel either, but not being familiar with the plane, I ended up low on one side with plenty on the other during a x-country. I made a stop for fuel that I really didn’t need.

Other local flights , I sometimes just felt uncomfortable with them sometimes not draining equally. For someone that was used to flying left/right tank choice by time, these fuel sight tubes being occasionally substantially unequal was a new, uncomfortable experience that I didn’t know how to fix at the time. 

Maybe it doesn’t matter to anyone else, but it made me much more comfortable, and could even prevent an accident, just by understanding it and knowing how to fix it. Just trying to help someone that appears to be new to the plane.

[Madhatter]

The only reason I mentioned fuel quantity is not anything towards you, but all the pilots I personally know who ran out of fuel. One friend recently ran out of fuel and landed in a military live fire zone . He said he checked his fuel level 20 min back. The only problem is there is so little dihedral on that plane model that it looked like a lot of fuel was left. The CT is a little like that.

[FlyingMonkey]

On 12/31/2023 at 7:56 PM, Towner said:

I never said anything about being low on fuel. I’ve never been low on fuel either, but not being familiar with the plane, I ended up low on one side with plenty on the other during a x-country. I made a stop for fuel that I really didn’t need.

Other local flights , I sometimes just felt uncomfortable with them sometimes not draining equally. For someone that was used to flying left/right tank choice by time, these fuel sight tubes being occasionally substantially unequal was a new, uncomfortable experience that I didn’t know how to fix at the time. 

Maybe it doesn’t matter to anyone else, but it made me much more comfortable, and could even prevent an accident, just by understanding it and knowing how to fix it. Just trying to help someone that appears to be new to the plane.

Do you know the fuel management trick of flying out 1/2 to 1 ball out of coordination to move fuel from one tank to the other?  The fuel "follows the ball", so whichever side the ball is on will receive fuel from the other tank.  I use this a lot on cross country flights when fuel isn't used equally.  Just fly in that configuration for 10-15min then recheck, repeat as necessary to get the fuel where you want it.  I have never even noticed a speed penalty doing this, though physics says there must be *some* additional drag.

This is really easy to do since our airplanes have a rudder trim wheel.

[Towner]

3 hours ago, FlyingMonkey said:

Do you know the fuel management trick of flying out 1/2 to 1 ball out of coordination to move fuel from one tank to the other?  The fuel "follows the ball", so whichever side the ball is on will receive fuel from the other tank.  I use this a lot on cross country flights when fuel isn't used equally.  Just fly in that configuration for 10-15min then recheck, repeat as necessary to get the fuel where you want it.  I have never even noticed a speed penalty doing this, though physics says there must be *some* additional drag.

This is really easy to do since our airplanes have a rudder trim wheel.

I mentioned it earlier in the post. Made a huge difference in my confidence level with fuel in the plane. It’s one of those things you just aren’t gonna know about the plane unless someone tells you or you read it here. 

[FlyingMonkey]

On 1/2/2024 at 12:52 PM, Towner said:

I mentioned it earlier in the post. Made a huge difference in my confidence level with fuel in the plane. It’s one of those things you just aren’t gonna know about the plane unless someone tells you or you read it here. 

Agreed.  It's the kind of thing that this forum is great for.

[Blueyonder]

Hi everyone.

Another question has come up and I am not sure if this is needed or not.

One mechanic said that the Ballistic parachute needs to be removed in order to get to the Flap motor?

Is anyone familiar with the 2014 CTLSi that found that they needed to do that? By looking at the pictures it would appear that the motor is easily accessible?

Thank you.

[Anticept]

Parachute doesn't have to be removed.

[Blueyonder]

Hi everyone.

No fix yet, but I have some more pics and trying to make sense of what is going on.

I found that This will Not go beyond 30 Deg. position, Manual mode.

I took a lot of pics and videos and looking at the Drive it seems to be very close to the black rubber wrap, just wondering if that is correct / acceptable?

It may have contributed to the failure but I do not think this will fix it, more likely something electric. I have a lot of pics and videos in case anyone wants / need any.

Thank you everyone for your help.

 

[Anticept]

The black bundle is for the parachute. As long as it's not rubbing its fine.

 

 

That motor terminal shouldn't be installed like that. That radius is far too small for the size of wire used and will break strands.

You said it's a 2014 CTLSi right? Does it even have flap settings past 30 degrees?

Limit switches on the flap actuator are what limits flap movement if the controller malfunctions and are set a few degrees past the flap settings of your aircraft.

DO NOT BYPASS THESE OR YOU WILL DAMAGE YOUR AIRCRAFT

 

 

There are some things we need to know and do first: First, to be clear, you were able to get the MANUAL DOWN setting working? There's two different ways to manually move the flaps and I want to make sure you got the built in switch working properly. Please tell us how you are moving the flaps.

If the built in switch isn't working and you had to use external switches, we're wasting time in the cargo bay, we need to work on finding out why you have or do not have a MANUAL DOWN mode. It's a click past the lowest flap setting. If you cant move the switch that far, you need to fix the switch as outlined here

 

[Blueyonder]

Hi everyone.

Thank you staying with me on this.

It is correct that, as is, the flap switch inside the cockpit does Not go beyond the 30 deg. position. We will look at the modification to see if the Manual option is available by using / looking at the modification shown.

The motor connection, bottom showing in that picture, is unusual and I do not understand why it looks like that. I am assuming that the stub may be another folded back wire that got routed on the side, which seems to have 2 wires in it?

I am not sure if the black rubber / sponge area is a factor, it is likely Not if there are no moving parts touching it.

Thanks again, I will keep you posted.

[Anticept]

You also will have the NEW flap system. The one that GrassStripFlyBoy posted is the OLD flap system, but it has the same style of rotary switch. Only a few CTLS came with the old one, up until late 2008 early 2009.

The bottom of the motor has two spade terminals. It is a standard DC motor. For some reason one of the terminations is doing a 180 right back into the cover and it's goofy.

Again, I would like to get on the phone with you sometime, I need to know some very specific tests and what happens when you do them while you are at the aircraft and i can have you pointed at the fault in no time.

[Blueyonder]

Hi CoreyLee.

The Wx around here is not very good and I will have to take the plane to a mechanic at Bracket or French Valley, it will likely be some time tomorrow.

If you can send me an Email with your nr. I would appreciate it. I cannot find out how to send a private Message.

My email is micro-user_at_protonmail.com. Thank you

[procharger]

Both my spade connections were kind of loose causing intermittent flaps operation  tighten both and seems to now work.

[Blueyonder]

Hi everyone.

A quick update.

For a short while, as I was getting ready to take the plane to the mechanic, it started to work then in the RunUp they failed again.

Where it it now is Not getting 12V to the motor. The reason, being investigated but it may be Controller, some connection....

It does not surprise me to be both, it is difficult to understand how FD / QC is accepting the type of quality that we see in that controller, see pic. The mech. is trying to see if he can get a controller somewhere.

Any suggestions as to the source of parts, or a schematic  greatly appreciated.

Thanks everyone for your input.

 

 

Edited March 22 by Blueyonder
Removed redundant pic.

[Anticept]

That's the REALLY old controller design. Impressive.

More than likely it just needs a re-flow.

[Blueyonder]

Hi everyone.

I "think" we may have found a fix for the flaps issues. The reason for the quotes is due to the fact that this problem was intermittent, but more recently it stopped working completely and  there are only a few hours since the it was solved?

The problem was in the wiring of the 9 pin connector, very poor choice of mechanical connections in the pins, fix was in one of the wires that was connected to the 10 K pot  that was working intermittently. This was due the fact that someone attempted to repair the pin using a soldering iron without removing the pin and the wire was mostly buried under the melted plastic rather than connected to the metal part of the pin.

The troubleshooting method was to test all the connections between the DB 15 pins and the back side of male connector that was directly connected to the Controller board. All those connections tested OK. The mechanic had a dongle that could be connected and had indications on what was the Up, Down directions and we were able to determine Direction, see schematic with signal names. The next step was to see if the motor worked and a small 12 V battery with a 3A  fuse was attached to the power  pins for a very short period.

Note: This should not be attempted unless you have an electronic / electrical background, damage to the motor may occur.

The motor moved and we exercised it a few times in different directions and eliminated that possibility.

Redirected the attention backwards toward the controller and discovered the pin problem, it was easily removed and reconnected to the wire before reinserted and everything started to work.

We initially had a difficult time finding a schematic and I posted, part of it, here for others in case it helps someone. Who did it? We do not know.

Thanks everyone for your help.

PS- I added some more info with the location of the connector in question.

Also, a good indicator that the Pot is failing, is the problem, is after you move the flaps, externally with the battery, to a different position and reconnect the connector, the flaps will work for short while then it fails again.